Western Railroad Discussion > Hi-Rail Fire Trucks

This was on display at the Fire Department Instructor's Conference (FDIC) trade show that was held last week in Indianapolis, IN. Pierce manufacturing out of Appleton, Wisconsin is now offering this option for some of its fire trucks.

"Dispatch, can we get track and time please?...Hello?"

Bermanator
MP 30.0 BNSF, Seattle Sub.

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That's Cool!!!!!! Good idea to add wheels.

Just have to tie it into Homeland Security and it should be a money-maker. Maybe some optional gun mounts and it should fit in for some of the multi-purpose TSA requirements. During the off-peak hours I'll bet it could be fitted for painting stripes on the freeway.

Very neat, but of course, it rai$e$ the price. Paid for by TSA (tax) dollars, no doubt.

However, I can just see the firemen who think that the fire situation in front of them is "just cause" to go jumpin on the rails w/o permission, thinking that their flashing lights will warn trains. We all know how the cops like to take command of rail infrastructure around an incident scene, sometimes needlessly so. I don't see the FD as being any different in behavior.

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I don't see the
> FD as being any different in behavior.


Seriously, I hope this would be for urban use in LRV tunnels and similar situations. The Portland system for example goes through a tunnel of some huge depth, I'm sure there a re similar situations for other cities. I certainly hope somebody has the sense to understand that it's not for freight related situations.

Sure, that's what a fire crew will do---jump on the tracks and hope that their lights and siren will move a train. Fire crews are professionals, fire Captains have extensive command training, and if a fire department has a specialized unit like the one pictured, you can rest assured that specific railroad policies will be in place dictating it's use. As for your comments about law enforcement, was that really necessary? Not sure where you get this "knowledge" from, but if your screen name is indicative of things, that explains it.

BTW, Europe has had hi-rail fire trucks for many years. Nothing new to them, but new to us. Seems like a good idea.

TV-10 Wrote:
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> Very neat, but of course, it rai$e$ the price.
> Paid for by TSA (tax) dollars, no doubt.
>
> However, I can just see the firemen who think that
> the fire situation in front of them is "just
> cause" to go jumpin on the rails w/o permission,
> thinking that their flashing lights will warn
> trains. We all know how the cops like to take
> command of rail infrastructure around an incident
> scene, sometimes needlessly so. I don't see the
> FD as being any different in behavior.

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>
> BTW, Europe has had hi-rail fire trucks for many
> years. Nothing new to them, but new to us. Seems
> like a good idea.
>


What/when are they used for? ie. tunnels, underground stations, would think areas with 'normal' clearances would make use of 'normal' rubber tired equipment
Would also think they would have a number of restrictions, special training for operators and crews, extraordinary reasons for using these, etc. What about third rail or overhead?? What about diesel power in confined areas?

I could see the state fire dept's having these as sometimes it might be quicker to go the rails to an isolated area. Oh yeah with proper communication with the dispatchers involved.

jd

The unit that I saw was used in England (London area) for the "tube". It was an electric unit and IIRC, it could also be powered by it's own on-board battery system in case the electricified rail was shut down. I'm trying to find the photos I have of it where it's on the tracks at the entrance to a tunnel. If I can find that photo, I'll try to take a picture of a picture and post it here. Not having any luck so far in finding it....

TCnR Wrote:

> What/when are they used for? ie. tunnels,
> underground stations, would think areas with
> 'normal' clearances would make use of 'normal'
> rubber tired equipment
> Would also think they would have a number of
> restrictions, special training for operators and
> crews, extraordinary reasons for using these, etc.
> What about third rail or overhead?? What about
> diesel power in confined areas?

TCnR Wrote:
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> Just have to tie it into Homeland Security and it
> should be a money-maker. Maybe some optional gun
> mounts and it should fit in for some of the
> multi-purpose TSA requirements. During the
> off-peak hours I'll bet it could be fitted for
> painting stripes on the freeway.

I'll pass on the recommendations to my brother who works for Pierce Mfg. 8>)

Bermanator- thanks for posting!

mapboy

Would work well for fires caused by rail grinders or forest fires in remote areas that only the RR accesses. Very use full for derailment fires!! Maybe the RRs should consider such an investment.

As having spent a great many years as a volunteer firefighter/EMT, I would like to offer a few clarifications to this conversation. First of all using the term "fire truck" is tantamount to referring to a train as a choo choo. Both terms hit me like fingernails on a chalkboard. Engine (pumper), ladder, quint, rescue, heavy rescue, urban interface, grass rig, squad, are the more common and appropriate terms given to these apparatus. If in doubt, the term fire engine is most appropriate.
The apparatus pictured here is a heavy rescue and does not carry water for fire suppression. A heavy rescue as basically a tool box, equipped with gear for vehicle extrication, high and low angle rope rescue, confined space and trench rescue, water rescue or whatever the truck/rescue company may specialize in per fire district demographics. This particular application would be set up for responding to incidents involving passenger trains where extrication may be needed.
The reference to entering an involved tunnel with apparatus is also incorrect. The environment within a burning tunnel would not be survivable without SCBA gear. Driving a vehicle where there is no oxygen should need no further explanation.

JDRumley Wrote:
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...
> The reference to entering an involved tunnel with
> apparatus is also incorrect. The environment
> within a burning tunnel would not be survivable
> without SCBA gear. Driving a vehicle where there
> is no oxygen should need no further explanation.


That's one of the many reason's this appears to be so ludicrous, exactly what an overzealous TSA planner would be imagined as to be looking for.
Trying to keep this out of Comedy Central, what advantage would this be over a traditional rubber tired vehicle or a CDF/BLM flight? A horrific train wreck in the backcountry is usually found by the Roadmaster or similar by way of a Hyrailer or light engine, an EMT vehicle on rail would be susceptible to all sorts of problems that has been left to experienced RR personnel (track damage for starters). Extraction of injured passengers or personnel is often beyond the scope or capibility of Jaws of Life, etc. Seems like it would place additional people in harms way, a more rugged rubber tired or soft tired vehicle would seem to be more appropriate, especially in terms of worn out Tax dollars.

The Best rail investment is a few(4) interconnected tank cars with a 20 HP fire pump on each end car and a fire nozzle on small platform at outfacing cars. Just make sure their full in summer and empty in winter.

Jaap Wrote:
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> The Best rail investment is a few(4)
> interconnected tank cars with a 20 HP fire pump on
> each end car and a fire nozzle on small platform
> at outfacing cars. Just make sure their full in
> summer and empty in winter.


Not much room for chrome though: http://spcascades.railfan.net/watercar.html
There was an excellent series of photos on this site on the tunnel fires a few years ago, can't find it at this time.

Very nice! I never knew there was such a thing. Do the RR's voluntarily go when a wildfire is near their tracks, or do they need to be requested by the Incident Commander?

TCnR Wrote:
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> Jaap Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Best rail investment is a few(4)
> > interconnected tank cars with a 20 HP fire pump
> on
> > each end car and a fire nozzle on small
> platform
> > at outfacing cars. Just make sure their full in
> > summer and empty in winter.
>
>
> Not much room for chrome though:
> http://spcascades.railfan.net/watercar.html
> There was an excellent series of photos on this
> site on the tunnel fires a few years ago, can't
> find it at this time.

smitty195 Wrote:
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> Very nice! I never knew there was such a thing. Do
> the RR's voluntarily go when a wildfire is near
> their tracks, or do they need to be requested by
> the Incident Commander?
>


I'm not an expert on the timing, what I've read is the RR is there to protect RR property, sometimes before the response has arrived on scene. With Western wildfires there is plenty of territory to be covered, often a small but timely action can prevent additional spread and also a bill from the State which usually includes an air tanker during 'Fire season'.
It varies with situation. An example would be the Cantara Loop spill, the responsible State Agency did not know the area and was lead in by RR MoW. Which is generally the case for most incidents outside of Urban areas, unless obviously near access. Nasty stuff, most often there is no in-between situations, which is why I don't understand a justification for a Hyrail EMT/Rescue.

To TCnR. I expect that this is not much more than a sales gimic. In my experience, urban interface and wildland appratus are the most effective supression pieces in incidents of wildland fire responses. As far as responding to derailments involving extrication, fire response is there to provide primary care to accessible victims, and to assist the railroads with rescue and extrication, since they are properly equippeed to deal with railroad equipment. Our extrication tools are designed for motor vehicle work. I cannot see any practicality in taking inadequate tools to an incident involving railroad equipment.

JDRumley Wrote:
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> To TCnR. I expect that this is not much more than
> a sales gimic. In my experience, urban interface
> and wildland appratus are the most effective
> supression pieces in incidents of wildland fire
> responses. As far as responding to derailments
> involving extrication, fire response is there to
> provide primary care to accessible victims, and to
> assist the railroads with rescue and extrication,
> since they are properly equippeed to deal with
> railroad equipment. Our extrication tools are
> designed for motor vehicle work. I cannot see any
> practicality in taking inadequate tools to an
> incident involving railroad equipment.

Hear, hear! Since I saw initially saw this, I've been trying to think thru my years in the fire service (long ago) and my many years in the news business (going to lots of train wrecks and brush fires) and I can't think of many situations where a hyrail engine company or hyrail rescue unit would have "saved the day."

Years ago I was fighting a midwestern brush fire along an inaccesable piece of railroad and we used a railroad hyrail pickup for access...the r-o-w actually acted as a fire break and the half-dozen or so Indian pump cans we had in the pickup were all the firefighting gear we really needed. The hyrail was neat, but we later realized, with the railroad closed, we could have driven one of our engines very nicely down the r-o-w.

Perhaps next year the good folks at Pierce will attach a set of rotor blades and a tail rotor to this same unit and call it a true "flying squad." (fire service pun).

Alco251 Wrote:

> ...the r-o-w
> actually acted as a fire break and the half-dozen
> or so Indian pump cans we had in the pickup were
> all the firefighting gear we really needed.

Indian pumps---brings back memories. I had completely forgotten about those heavy, bulky things!

Andy