Western Railroad Discussion > Industry Culture and Perspective

After calming down from my initial knee-jerking response to the Metrolink/BNSF tragedy and reading all the various reports I could wade through, and from reading emails I have received from professional railroaders there are several things that just plain stink about this.

Initial findings show that equipment failure was not at fault. The event recorders show some interesting facts about the trains behavior and the actions of the crew on board. According to the records the railroad followed the guidelines in regards to the hours of service (put crew fatigue issue aside at the moment). Criminal actions have also been ruled out so far. That only leaves one hole to be filled: the human factor.

I can understand why we don't hear any direct statements from the crew members. But what I find interesting is that if all the proceedures were followed except for the actions of the crew. When do we hear their story directly from them? (I realize that we may never hear it.)

Is BNSF afraid of being accused of some wrong doing? They are doing typical big industry posturing right now keeping 'hush-hush' and getting their 'ducks in a row'.

If crew members are really suffering from fatigue, then why do crew members continue to perpetuate it? Is garnering that paycheck really worth possibly killing yourselves, your fellow co-workers or innocent people?

You guys/gals that work in the 'real' world of railroading are the ones who need to change the culture. If you or you let your fellow co-workers continue to work beyond your/their physical limitations you are part of the problem. Nobody is forcing you to move that train if you don't feel up to it. NOBODY. You can save the job security crap. I have walked off many a job in my regular field over the past 17+ years and continue to work in the same field and have even been re-hired by the same company, sometimes re-hired several times by the same company albeit in different locations. I hear you guys/gals piss and moan about your respective unions all the time. Why don't you do something about it? Save the anti-union speeches, I belong to one myself (IUOE Local #3) and have run the gamut of union issues on both sides. My union and especially my local are proactive and vehemently persue safety issues. If our membership doesn't like the leadership, we get new leaders. If your union reps aren't doing their job get new reps. If your union isn't representing you, join a different union that will represent you.

The problem is not going to get solved just by more rules or regs either. The culture itself has got to change. The crews that promote 'turn and burn' schedules so that they can garner $100K salaries have got to stop. The railroads policies of running crews into the ground with sometimes impossible crew scheduling has got to stop as well. I understand that everyone wants their 'piece of the pie', and the largest piece they can get their greedy hands on. Personally I would not feel comfortable grabbing a 'piece of the pie', especially if my hands were covered with someone else's blood.

Personal safety begins and ends with you. You folks have the power to change it. Nobody is going to change it for you.

The question is when?


SV

OHBOY, expect a lot of comments on this one.

There is a world of difference between the construction industry and the transportation industry. Always has, always will.

Since you are not involved in the transportation industry, (no matter what kind of reply you may make,) you obviously do not understand what goes on.

Every segment of the transportation industry, rail, trucking, airlines and marine suffer from many of the same problems.

Problems such as irregular hours, different day different bed, thought of by the general public as "not as well eductated," responisible for the lives of others, having to carry out the work that others created and scheduled without their imput, driven by management that pounds "get it there now, accused of causing the problems/accidents/product-not-on-time, etc.

The construction industry mostly starts at sunrise and ends sometime in the afternoon. I would call that regular hours.

With the exception of LTL fright companies, most drivers/engineers in the transportation industry do not have regurlar hours.

All companies, of almost any size, have designated spokepersons who make sure the press gets "the official" company spin. They're called Public Relations. Most of them are non-technical and everything they say or release has lots of pre-release review by the legal eagles.

Regular employees are absolutely prohibited from making statements to the press about company issues, under penalty of dismissal. You can talk, but don't expect the company to welcome you back...

Companies have the right to contol info that may be used against them in lawsuits. If the individual is prosecuted, then and only then he has the right to defend his actions in public. But as long as the company is responsible legally, they control the info.

Don't get wadded up in First Amendment stuff, either, this has been hashed out all the way to the Supreme Court many times.

What was that availability rule BNSF has? Isn't it something like 75% or some such OUTRAGEOUS number?

Actually, the whole idea of the crew not speaking to the media isn't that unusual.

Where I work, the same applies. All media inquiries are handled from a central office by a designated person.

I wouldn't worry about it. The NTSB report will give us the truth, eventually or as close to it as possible.

But I do agree that the only one who can make the change are those people effected by the problem.

We have all the overtime anyone wants, up to 6 days a week, 12 hours total a day. We don't have the hours of service to protect us. Personally, I did 6 weeks of 60 plus hour weeks and when done, I was one whipped puppy, running on auto-pilot at times. Yes, I got my rest, but after a while the days all ran into each other, and that one day a week was spent catching up on everything from sleep to laundry. I made good money but the price I paid was high.

Since then, I've worked as little overtime as possible. Management refuses to have an adequate head count to do the business, saying budget is the issue. But they can pay overtime like crazy.

As long as people will work, the money will keep them there. Doesn't matter if it's on the train or in the factory.

OHBOY is right!!!!

Nice speech there, Sanding Valve. Too bad it doesn't mean diddly squat!!

Another person who doesn't work and live it 24/7 like a lot of us do, telling us how it "should be" and if we don't like it, to just "fix the problem" or "change the system".

I especially love the comment about how nobody is forcing us to move that train if we don't think we can or don't want to!! Come on!!!!

The vast majority of Class 1 RR's have not, do not, and never will maintain a "sufficient" workforce to allow for "reasonable lay-offs" to combat fatigue, family issues, personal matters, and so forth. That's the only part of the "system" that needs to be changed!! It would be great if the RR's allowed US to decide when we are tired, fatigued, or maybe just want a little free time to unwind or take our wives or girlfriends out on a Friday or Saturday night like normal people do.

If I had a nickel for every time I had a crew caller tell me that "you're the only guy I got, you have to take the job", or "the board is exhausted, you GOTTA go", I could retire today!!

And don't give me any crap about our unions changing the system or working for us. The unions would love to see sufficient manpower to run the RR's safely and allow for lay-offs, fatigue reduction, and so forth. If it was easy to get things changed in this industry for OUR benefit, it would have happened along time ago!! The only things that gets changed easily in terms of regulatory approval and so forth are things that benefit the RR's themselves. Remote Control would be a good example. There are still no hard rules from the FRA governing it's approaching widespread usage. Only some minor changes to existing FRA regs and engineer certification rules that will allow it to be implemented whenever the RR's are ready to.

When changes benefit the RR's, they occur all too quickly. When they benefit us, they happen at a snail's pace at best.

Sorry to vent everyone, but I personally am sick and tired of people who haven't walked 10 seconds in my shoes telling me "how it should be"!!!!

SooLineHoghead

Also note... both BNSF crewmembers jumped from the cab prior to impact. One of them was in the hospital (released yesterday IIRC) for head injuries.

Hypothetically... if you KNEW you did something wrong, would YOU want to talk to the media???

jst3751-

There are many of us (IUOE members or not) in the construction and mining industries as well as in the shipping and transportation industries. We also cover power generating facilities including nuclear. Who do you think is loading those radial coal stackers in the Powder River Basin or operating some of the material handling equipment in the ports, terminals and warehouses loading freight cars?

Many of the jobs I listed above DO have odd working hours. There are thousands of IUOE members as well as those that are not in the IUOE that perform shift work and often on a rotating shift. Unlike the railroad industry, many of us don't have hours of service laws to protect us. I myself have put in numerous 14 and 16 hr shifts many times consecutively.

But comparison of the two industries was not the intent of my original post. RE-READ the title. It is about industry cultures and about those that are involved in them and what they actually are doing about it to change it. It boils down to money on both sides: The company wants more productivity for less pay and the workers want as much pay as they can garner. That is the American way. The problem is when that greed starts costing lives.

I'm merely asking how much of a wake up call is needed before either railroaders take it upon themselves to find working (no pun intended) solutions or companies are forced by laws and regs or the workers themselves to help eliminate the problem. Sure it's going to raise the hackles of some. That is the point because the current method is not working. We hear these guys complain all the time about not getting enough rest. Read RioRat's tale or some of the other stories about being awake for 22.5 hrs before going on duty for 12 hrs. It's chilling to say the least what these guys go through.

I don't buy into the 'you don't know what it is like' mentality. That is the same mentality that is causing the problem. Unless these guys/gals REALLY change their culture they will continue to suffer the same fates. Historically the railroad industry is very slow and reluctant to change the way it operates until drastic measures are either forced upon them or they see a chance for big profits.

Like I said before,

The question is when are they going to make the change?


SV

Soolinehoghead-

You are exemplifying the type of mentality that is so steadfast in your industry.

Other than the number of greenbacks going into your pocket for taking that run when you know you have not rested enough, WHY ARE YOU OBLIGATED TO TAKE THE CALL?

Because it is your job? Even if that means you may end up killing yourself, a fellow co-worker or someone else?

And what transgression will be heaped upon you for not accepting that call? Lose your job vs losing your life or the life of someone else? Where's the priority here?

Just your tone and the comments you have made makes it quite clear where you stand:
GET OVER THE ROAD AND GET PAID, NO MATTER THE COST.


If your shoes lead to the grave I wouldn't want to wear them anyway.

SV

From preliminary findings, the BNSF train crew ignored a signal. That resulted in a collision. What is not known is what caused the crew to miss the signal. Be patient and the findings will eventually be released after a thorough investigation.

This isn't the first wreck and will not be the last. In fact, I can recall reading about three passenger trains that ran into freight trains within a year. Solo engineers, in my opinion, compromise safety. Still, it is probably true that people are safer on trains than in automobiles or airplanes so it's a good way to travel. Likewise, I'd rather depend on skilled railroaders to safely move freight than on speeding trucks tailgating on the highways.

Some type of technology will eventually be implemented to back up the human factor. GPS is good, but probably not accurate enough to fail-safe enough for railroading. More research is needed.

Forget about ATS. That's ancient technology. If it were so great, Metrolink would probably have installed it on their tracks already.

As for crew hours, I seem to recall a joint plan on UP to provide for more rest and consistent work hours in the Powder River Basin. Rank and file voted it down; preferred bigger paychecks instead.

I've worked plenty of OT. Many people working constant OT were always bitching about it, but they never turned it down, preferring fat paychecks instead. I doubt if it's different on the railroad.

Most rail workers are covered by collective bargaining agreements. That gives them a leg up on the unorganized masses. If one belongs to a labor organization then it is up to that member to participate and be a part of the union. Somebody must do the committee work, scale committee work, be an officer, etc. Just paying dues and griping does nothing.

Sanding Valve,

Yeah, you're right, the only thing forcing me to take that call is the greenbacks going into MY pocket. You betcha, pal, that's it!!

Knock, Knock Puddin' Head!!!

My whole point, which somehow managed to blow right past you, is that we can't get off on many occasions whether we want to or not. We DON'T have the option in many cases of turning down a call, or laying-off because we are to fatigued to go.

You ask "what transgression will be heaped upon us" if we refuse to go. Discipline or even dismissal is the answer to your question. And, unlike you by your own admission, I don't intend to be fired and rehired, fired and rehired, fired and rehired over and again, therebye losing 30+ years of seniority in the process.

That very example makes my point!! Why should I, or any other railroad employee have to do that to get the system changed? And how exactly will that even help to change the system?

I'll "get over the road and get paid" regardless. Doing it with what I determine to be sufficient rest, not what someone else determines for me, is the issue.

But obviously, in your haste to tell me and my fellow workers "how it is" and "what our attitudes are", that fact must have escaped you!!

Hire out, try and work awhile WITHOUT getting yourself fired, and then talk to me again.

Until then.........

SooLineHoghead




SandingValve wrote:

> Soolinehoghead-
>
> You are exemplifying the type of mentality that is so
> steadfast in your industry.
>
> Other than the number of greenbacks going into your pocket
> for taking that run when you know you have not rested enough,
> WHY ARE YOU OBLIGATED TO TAKE THE CALL?
>
> Because it is your job? Even if that means you may end up
> killing yourself, a fellow co-worker or someone else?
>
> And what transgression will be heaped upon you for not
> accepting that call? Lose your job vs losing your life or the
> life of someone else? Where\\'s the priority here?
>
> Just your tone and the comments you have made makes it quite
> clear where you stand:
> GET OVER THE ROAD AND GET PAID, NO MATTER THE COST.
>
>
> If your shoes lead to the grave I wouldn\\'t want to wear them
> anyway.
>
> SV
>
> [%sig%]

Ah, but there is a difference between moving around working and sitting staring out ahead concentrating on what is out there.

Changes are not going to happen with just engineers or conducters or truck drivers getting togther and taking a stand. It is going to take persons from management, shippers, public, and others to get together to solve such a large problem.

It is the system that needs repair or overhaul. That is not going to happen by one group standing their ground.

This discussion board is about railfanning. Not telling train crews that they are not fixing the problem.

No one is perfect. Not you, not me, not them.

We should be constructive, not propagating desctructive critisism, which is what your post is coming off as being.

Soolinehoghead-

Again you do so well at pointing out the mentality that I'm speaking about. It's a shame that you have to resort to name calling in the process.

I didn't 'blow by' the points you made. I saw them and read them just fine. The way you responded shows me that possibly you are caught up in the fact that someone is shining a headlight into the dark tunnel of railroading and you don't like it.

I see your point of view and I respect your reasons for doing so, I don't agree with some of them. I have not singled you personally out nor any other individual railroader. I was speaking in general terms about the industry as a whole and the practices it keeps.

It seems that rationality let alone any discussion regarding railroad industry practices can occur anymore. Actually it occurs in all industry practice discussions whether they be in the public or private sector. I guess I thought the American working man or woman regardless of chosen career still had a fighting chance. Unfortunately it looks like the almighty dollar has tainted even that last vestage of hope.

I wish you and all your fellow railroad employees the best of luck in your careers and that you have many a safe trip over the road.


SV

My dad and grandpa were engineers. Grandpa when I knew him was a high seniority engineer with his choice of jobs. My dad rode the extra board for most of his railroad career. Seniority was everything. When things slowed, the demand of the more senior men was to cut the board, so that there was enough work for those lucky enough to hang on. Those cut off had to find other work until they were called back, and if you asked for a job and told them you were lalid off, they figured you would not hang around.An example - all summer long, senior men bid the jobs over the mountains - come 1st snow, beck down in the valley and the kids get the snow.

Perhaps that is why I became the other kind of engineer, Electrical and Mechanical, instead of the kind that had all the fun.

Early on, I worked rotating shifts in a chemical plant and a cement plant, and rotating shifts. Shift work is for the young.

Perhaps railroads should be required to pay regular salaries and have regular hours. I just don't know how it would work.

I would like to say it's comforting to know that there are those like Soolinehoghead who place their "XX" number of years of seniority over the safety of their fellow co-workers or innocent passengers on a train. That sure let's the rest of us know where these individuals have their morals and ethics.

This will the only time I point out somebody like Soolinehoghead in the crowd:

"Shake hands with danger folks. He may be at the throttle of your train or the oncoming train."

Thanks again Soolinehoghead for enlightening the rest of us.


SandingValve- OUT

I never liked that part of "Shake hands with danger" where the guy gets his arm severed.


TCSmith - 12

SandingValve, as Stash mentioned in his reply, about a year ago the UP offered to test a new work/rest cycle agreement for some engineers in the North Platte area; the deal was for more rest/less money (regular rest cycles/schedules), which was the only conceivable way that it could be done when you do something like that. Needless to say, the engineers unanimously voted it down -- seems they'd rather make the money and fight to get their rest, than to to be well rested and make less money for their work. It's a "double-edged sword," when it comes to getting rest vs making money in this line of work.

You can't have it both ways, and those North Platte engineers decided the the money-part of the equation was the more important part of the deal. Unfortunately, the UP also seems to have phased out all of the work/rest extra boards for trainmen in the past year. I never did hear much about those and how they were working out; I guess we go back to square one again!

Of course, if we get the dreaded "trip-rate" agreement on our next contract, the work/rest cycle agreements will be a moot point anyway! That is...if they can ever come to any kind of agreement on the national contract! Don't hold your breath!

My solution, get tired or have something to do, just mark off. But space it out so you don't get into trouble. I worked in 4 weeks, 26 days with only 4 off and then towards the end of that I took a three day weekend.

Don't get paid when you mark off, so you only hurt yourself and the company gets off cheaper with a newer employee making less money than you do filling your spot.

"I would like to say it's comforting to know that there are those like Soolinehoghead who place their "XX" number of years of seniority over the safety of their fellow co-workers or innocent passengers on a train. That sure let's the rest of us know where these individuals have their morals and ethics."

C'mon SV, statements such as this only make you look ignorant to the realities of the issue.

Yes, in an ideal world, it would be nice if crews could say that they've had enough and make a stand. But... throw in mortgage payments, cost of living expenses, children's education costs, and so forth, and you'll find that the choices don't come so easy for many RR's.

Now, don't think the RR's don't know this and use it to their advantage. If I had $1 for every time I was told by a supervisor (most of whom are home in their own beds every night after an 8 hour shift) that I couldn't lay off... even requesting to be marked off sick... I could have retired by now. Sometimes, pleading your case works. Many times, however, the employee is threatened with investigation... or the charge of insuboordination (a dismissable offense on the RR, which is also not covered by any out of service insurance policies) and/or the the prospect of disciplinary action. Here on the NS, if your availability rate falls below 90%, your entire work record is put under the microscope. This includes extra time of being "observed" by supervision while working.

The complexities of the issue, and the limitations imposed on job actions by the Railway Labor Act, won't allow for a solution until ALL parties decide it is serious enough to address. Some RR's have made token attempts. Conrail tried one in our area... setting up a "quiet room" at one of the yards, where employees could sign in and take a short power nap while waiting for their train to show up. That lasted until NS took over... and that carrier's response to the project was to remove the stairs to the building (it was a trailer parked adjacent to the yard office) so it could no longer be used (after all, it was a Conrail idea... and NS couldn't have us doing things that weren't "theirs").

Another example is a half-hearted attempt at helping employees to better manage their lifestyles. On CR, every employee got a videotape explaining the importance of proper rest, the benefits of maintaining balance in one's life, and how to effectively plan their schedule. That was all well and good... except when the video made the disclaimer that its principles won't work for T&E employees... and then went on to suggest that train crews should purchase video cameras and have their friends and family tape important events (such as weddings, graduations, birthday parties, etc) that they're going to miss! No joke, that is what the tape actually recommended, and CR submitted it to regulatory agencies as an example of trying to address the fatigue issue.

Yes, change is needed... but both sides need to admit the problem and take a real interest in solving it. It's not a simple matter of crews taking a stand. Trust me, if many of us thought we could get away with it and still be able to put food on the table, it would have been done by now...

SandingValve wrote:

> Many of the jobs I listed above DO have odd working hours.
> There are thousands of IUOE members as well as those that are
> not in the IUOE that perform shift work and often on a rotating
> shift. Unlike the railroad industry, many of us don\\'t have
> hours of service laws to protect us. I myself have put in
> numerous 14 and 16 hr shifts many times consecutively.

I think it is important to note that in many other industries with rotating shift work, the employee knows in advance when his next shift will start, and can therefore plan his rest accordingly. The problem with the railroad is that often times the employee is forced to take his best guess as to when he will be called for work. If he guesses right, he's rested. If he's wrong, there's a good chance he's not.

I take my responsibilities as an engineer very seriously. I understand that I work in an industry that operates 24/7 and that I must be willing to sleep anytime of the day or night to be rested for my assignment. But, I can't be rested 24 hours a day. I need to know in advance when my next call will be, and right now I'm not getting that. I'm taking guesses.

I agree that the problem is one of industry culture. I don't forsee the problem getting much better unless the railroads decide to run trains when they say they are going to, and don't when they say they're not.