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Date: 01/06/09 22:21
Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: Inthehole

The California city of Elk Grove will be doing a trespassing sweep Wednesday (Jan 7). Every on the ROW will get a citation. See the Sacramento Bee story at http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/crime/archives/018338.html and stay away from teh city tomorrow if 'fanning.



Date: 01/06/09 22:36
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: Top_bullfrog

Good. I hear of too much crazy happenings in Elk Grove over the radio. From kids throwing rocks and leaving things on the tracks, to whackos shooting at the crews, I've heard a lot. I just hope the police catch some of those people as well as the trespassers. People need to learn that trains aren't going to dodge them when they're near the tracks.

Top_bullfrog
Sacramento, CA



Date: 01/06/09 22:39
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: UPTRAIN

Why exactly do they announce a "sting operation" like this to the public? The Missouri Highway Patrol does the same thing on occasion, I never understood it.



Date: 01/06/09 22:48
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: SD45X

Glad it took them so long to do it. When I was out there, they were messing with the RR all the time.



Date: 01/07/09 00:00
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: CimaScrambler

UPTRAIN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why exactly do they announce a "sting operation"
> like this to the public? The Missouri Highway
> Patrol does the same thing on occasion, I never
> understood it.

I'm thinking it has something to do with avoiding the legal definition of "entrapment". If you tell 'em you're coming, it can't be entrapment, or some such malarkey.

Kit Courter
Torrance, CA
LunarLight Photography



Date: 01/07/09 03:40
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: RobJ

UPTRAIN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why exactly do they announce a "sting operation"
> like this to the public? The Missouri Highway
> Patrol does the same thing on occasion, I never
> understood it.

I think it is a public awareness campaign.
I can't judge whether that is effective. I think the reality is if you are really trying to "crack down" by enforcement it is very hard. You are going to spend a lot of time writing up trespassing tickets, clogging the courts and earning lots of bad will.

Bob



Date: 01/07/09 04:29
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: vegasrails

Many of the Class ones have tried this, giving notice looks better than just going out and making a sweep.



Date: 01/07/09 06:10
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: skyview

Of all the crime in America, its great to see time and money spent on such a serious problem.



Date: 01/07/09 06:15
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: RobJ

skyview Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of all the crime in America, its great to see time
> and money spent on such a serious problem.


Well maybe we should just forget traffic law enforcement also.


Bob



Date: 01/07/09 06:46
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: lodich

Inthehole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The California city of Elk Grove will be doing a
> trespassing sweep Wednesday (Jan 7). Every on the
> ROW will get a citation. See the Sacramento Bee
> story at
> http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/crime/archive
> s/018338.html and stay away from teh city tomorrow
> if 'fanning.

Good to hear it. Sunday I was crossing the tracks at Grant Line and noticed a dirt biking family with their trailer and kids extremely close to the tracks and wondered if anyone ever bothered to discourage that activity...future Darwin award winners is what I really thought!



Date: 01/07/09 08:13
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: SLOCONDR

skyview Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of all the crime in America, its great to see time
> and money spent on such a serious problem.


Sorry, can't agree with you on this point. YOU go ride a train through the area, get shot at numerous times, get rocked trip after trip and then quote what you posted.

Virlon

SLOCONDR



Date: 01/07/09 08:18
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: donner_dude1

Kids walking home from school use the ROW as a walking path from Bond Road to Elk Grove Blvd. They also cut across the tracks just south of the Elk Grove Blvd crossing.

With all of the E/W traffic on Elk Grove Blvd the crossing should have an underpass. Grant Line Road (to the south of Elk Grv Blvd) is due to get an overpass sometime in the future if the Measure A funding doesn't dry up.



Date: 01/07/09 08:25
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: wigwagfan

CimaScrambler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm thinking it has something to do with avoiding
> the legal definition of "entrapment".

Nothing to do with Entrapment. Entrapment, as a defense, would be if the police officer "forced" you onto the railroad property, and then cited you with trespass.

If you went onto the railroad right-of-way on your own free will and got caught by a cop...it's not entrapment. Same as a police officer citing you for a speeding ticket out of nowhere...unless the officer was forcing you to speed, it's not entrapment.



Date: 01/07/09 09:46
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: a737flyer

I also think that arresting people for trespassing leaves the officers time badly used, at least as far as police department mentality goes, as has been pointed out above. I think announcing a big crackdown will have about the same affect as having police officer's waiting around to enforce a law like trespassing...at least in the mentality of law enforcement.

Kind of like putting an official-looking sticker on your front door that you have an alarm system and really not having one. Who's going to test your sign?

Who's going to test the trespassing crackdown?



Date: 01/07/09 10:32
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: SD45X

skyview Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of all the crime in America, its great to see time
> and money spent on such a serious problem.


Well, just look what happened in Broomfield last summer when the chunk of wood was put on the track and derailed a BNSF train and wrecked 4 engines.
When we would come into Elk Grove on the trackage rights train, we never new what to expect. They would put anything they could find between the rails. When the trains were stopped there, they were getting broken into. And one day, the UP dispatcher was stopping all trains because some kids had jumped on and were afraid to get off, and they didn't know what train they were on. So you can see it's not a small problem. Lot of tank cars run through there, spill one and there goes the neighborhood.



Date: 01/07/09 10:35
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: Lackawanna484

a737flyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also think that arresting people for trespassing
> leaves the officers time badly used, at least as
> far as police department mentality goes, as has
> been pointed out above. I think announcing a big
> crackdown will have about the same affect as
> having police officer's waiting around to enforce
> a law like trespassing...at least in the mentality
> of law enforcement.
>
> Kind of like putting an official-looking sticker
> on your front door that you have an alarm system
> and really not having one. Who's going to test
> your sign?
>
> Who's going to test the trespassing crackdown?


NJ does a lot of announcements before major crackdowns. Their "Click it or Ticket" campaign to use seatbelts picked up a lot of uninspected, unregistered, wanted for warrant violation folks over a month period. I'm not sure they really wanted seatbelts at all.

But, they couldn't say we're going to stop every car on Morris Avenue in Morristown (where I was stopped twice) or Bloomfield Avenue in Verona (ditto) etc to look for warrant violators. Same thing with their New Year's Eve roadblocks. grab a few uninspected cars and lots of drunks behind the wheel.



Date: 01/07/09 10:44
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: hobojaks

a737flyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>I think announcing a big
> crackdown will have about the same affect as
> having police officer's waiting around to enforce
> a law like trespassing...at least in the mentality
> of law enforcement.
>
> Kind of like putting an official-looking sticker
> on your front door that you have an alarm system
> and really not having one. Who's going to test
> your sign?
>
> Who's going to test the trespassing crackdown?

I would think that the people being caught in the
sweep will be the less well informed types. One good
thing is that probably not to many rail fans with
internet access that read this news group will get caught.

On the other hand, folks that don't have internet access,
can't afford the paper, and are unaware of what is going
on with the railroads will not be aware of the sting and
will get caught. The local homeless population will no
doubt be greatly effected, as will the less well educated.

I am guessing that these 'trespassers' will be sighted
with 369.i which if you read the law carefully is actually
a charge of 'interfering with railroad operations'.

In California there are two levels of trespassing, the first
level is if you are trespassing but leave when ask.

The second level, is trespassing, and refusing to leave when
ask to, particularly if ask to leave by a peace officer, and
railroad bulls count as peace officers.

So my guess is that everybody they had a ticket to will be
overcharged with a misdemeanor, on the first contact.

If the more sophisticated
element of the community were charged, and fought the charge
tooth and nail and ask for a jury trial they could get off, but
the down trodden types that they are going to cite, will end up
throwing the ticket away, getting a failure to appear to go along
with their original charge, and having a bench warrant issued for
them so that the next time that the police have contact with these
'homeless mentally ill' and fringe element
types they can whisk them off to our overcrowded jail system.

I think that the 'city' of Elk Grove, does not even have its own
jail, and will have to make room for the folks it captures in the
downtown jail. Since Elk Grove is a long walk from downtown arresting
the homeless population and sending them for a night in jail essentially
removes the problem of homeless folks along the railroad tracks, in the
more affluent Elk Grove.

Children of wealthy parents walking home from school might also
present a good share of needed cash for that cash strapped municipality.



Date: 01/07/09 11:04
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: smitty195

hobojaks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I am guessing that these 'trespassers' will be
> sighted
> with 369.i which if you read the law carefully is
> actually
> a charge of 'interfering with railroad
> operations'.

That is not a correct interpretation of 369i(a) PC. Just being on railroad property without permission of the railroad is enough to meet the element of the crime of trespassing on railroad property. Re-read the section and you will see the word "or"---not "and".

> In California there are two levels of trespassing,
> the first
> level is if you are trespassing but leave when
> ask.
>
> The second level, is trespassing, and refusing to
> leave when
> ask to, particularly if ask to leave by a peace
> officer, and
> railroad bulls count as peace officers.

There are not two levels of trespassing. Trespassing is trespassing. In certain situations, it does require a warning to leave and if the person returns, then they can be charged with trespassing by using a different section of the penal code.

> So my guess is that everybody they had a ticket to
> will be
> overcharged with a misdemeanor, on the first
> contact.

Again, this is not correct. If a person is issued a citation for trespassing on railroad property, that is not being overcharged---that is the correct charge.

> If the more sophisticated
> element of the community were charged, and fought
> the charge
> tooth and nail and ask for a jury trial they could
> get off

A jury trial for 369i(a)---are you joking? It would never get that far. Pay the fine and be done with it, or, in some communities, attend a railroad safety class approved by the courts (similar to traffic school).

> but
> the down trodden types that they are going to
> cite, will end up
> throwing the ticket away, getting a failure to
> appear to go along
> with their original charge, and having a bench
> warrant issued for
> them so that the next time that the police have
> contact with these
> 'homeless mentally ill' and fringe element
> types they can whisk them off to our overcrowded
> jail system.

Because of overcrowding, some warrants are not enforced. In a city in Santa Clara County a few years ago, any warrant with a bail amount less than $5,000 would not get a person arrested (at the direction of the police chief, citing budgetary concerns). Other cities started doing this as well, but I don't know if it's still going on today.

> I think that the 'city' of Elk Grove, does not
> even have its own
> jail, and will have to make room for the folks it
> captures in the
> downtown jail. Since Elk Grove is a long walk
> from downtown arresting
> the homeless population and sending them for a
> night in jail essentially
> removes the problem of homeless folks along the
> railroad tracks, in the
> more affluent Elk Grove.

Arrestees, if brought to the Sacramento County Jail, would be cited and released----not likely they would be held overnight for a charge like this. If a person is brought in on a bench warrant and the bail is low, they *might* be held overnight, but it's still not very likely.



Date: 01/07/09 14:44
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: skyview

"Sorry, can't agree with you on this point. YOU go ride a train through the area, get shot at numerous times, get rocked trip after trip and then quote what you posted.

Virlon "

Absolutely go after those that shoot, rock, or commit vandalism, but incidental trespassing, come on, the nation is in collapse with all sorts of issues. Gentle, kind reminders, fine, education great, but writing everyone a citation who might be 5 foot on the right of way... come on, enough... OR if you really beleive in writing everyone, then almost all posting on this board ought to turn themselves in and be cited, as no doubt, regardless of intent, most here have at least to a minor degree trespassed.... Ive worked for the railroads in the past, taught safety classes for railroads, and have seen those that should be issued citations... just cant agree with it being worth the effort, time, and expense to go after 100% and hassle those that may have made a simple mistake. If its a revenue enhancement measure by the city, then that is simply wrong though I dont really beleive that is whats going on.



Date: 01/07/09 18:57
Re: Elk Grove (CA) Trespassing Enforcement Wednesday
Author: hobojaks

smitty195 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is not a correct interpretation of 369i(a)
> PC. Just being on railroad property without
> permission of the railroad is enough to meet the
> element of the crime of trespassing on railroad
> property. Re-read the section and you will see the
> word "or"---not "and".
> A jury trial for 369i(a)---are you joking? It
> would never get that far. Pay the fine and be done
> with it, or, in some communities, attend a
> railroad safety class approved by the courts
> (similar to traffic school).
>

369i. (a) Any person who enters or remains upon the property of any
railroad without the permission of the owner of the land, the owner'
s agent, or the person in lawful possession and whose entry,
presence, or conduct upon the property interferes with, interrupts,
or hinders, or which, if allowed to continue, would interfere with,
interrupt, or hinder the safe and efficient operation of any
locomotive, railway car, or train is guilty of a misdemeanor.
As used in this subdivision, "property of any railroad" means any
land owned, leased, or possessed by a railroad upon which is placed a
railroad track and the land immediately adjacent thereto, to the
distance of 20 feet on either side of the track, which is owned,
leased, or possessed by a railroad.
(b) Any person who enters or remains upon any rail transit related
property owned or operated by a county transportation commission or
transportation authority without permission or whose entry, presence,
or conduct upon the property interferes with, interrupts, or hinders
the safe and efficient operation of the railline or rail-related
facility is guilty of a misdemeanor.
As used in this subdivision, "rail transit related property" means
any land or facilities owned, leased, or possessed by a county
transportation commission or transportation authority.
(c) This section does not prohibit picketing in the immediately
adjacent area of the property of any railroad or rail transit related
property or any lawful activity by which the public is informed of
the existence of an alleged labor dispute.

> Arrestees, if brought to the Sacramento County
> Jail, would be cited and released----not likely
> they would be held overnight for a charge like
> this. If a person is brought in on a bench warrant
> and the bail is low, they *might* be held
> overnight, but it's still not very likely.

Here I have to agree with you that the policy of the
countly jail would normally be tag and release.

However the maximum penalty for violation the of 369.i would
be six months in the county jail plus a $1000 fine plus penalty
assesments.

The way that I always read this law was

...and whose entry,
presence, or conduct upon the property INTERFERERES with, INTERRUPTS,
or HINDERS, or which, if allowed to continue, would INTERFERE with,
INTERRUPT, or HINDER the safe and efficient operation</b> of any
locomotive, railway car, or train is guilty of a misdemeanor.



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