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Western Railroad Discussion > New "Clean" Power Plant Texas


Date: 01/20/12 17:38
New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: jc76




Date: 01/20/12 17:51
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: WrongWayMurphy

Rail content, coal to be delivered on the T&P, location about 15 miles west of Odessa, TX

Gasifiers Siemens SFG(TM)-500 Gasifier (2)
Combustion Turbine Siemens SGT6-PAC 5000F (1)
Steam Turbine Siemens SST-900RH (1)
Heat Recovery Steam Generator Triple Pressure (1)
Design Coal Low Sulfur Powder River Basin
Water-Gas Shift Reactor To allow CO2 removal
Sulfur Removal Approximately 99%
H2S Separation Acid gas treatment
Sulfur Recovery Claus plant/Elemental Sulfur
Mercury Control Carbon Bed
Ammonia Production Haber Process
NOX Control Saturation and N2 Dilution
Filter / Scrubber Venturi Water Scrubber
Air Emissions Lower than for any coal plant



Date: 01/20/12 18:29
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: Lackawanna484

Many of those supplies (coal, ammonia, etc) are recurring business that the railroad will likely deliver for 30-50 years.



Date: 01/20/12 18:47
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: tomstp

I read about this over a year ago. I have asked many people the following question: 15 miles west of Odessa, Tx where on earth are they going to get the water needed to make steam at a power plant? I have not gotten an answer.

Odessa Tx is pure desert, maybe not to the extent of southern Arizona or Death Valley Calif, but it is dry desert with no rivers and less than 17" of rain a year and not even close to that for the last several years. Last year they went over 360 days with NO RAIN. Even the mesquite trees out there rarely get over 5 feet tall, many not over 2 feet.

In Pecos, many miles west there is the Pecos River but, it is a joke to call it a river. Rarely does it have water in it. There is underground water irrigating Pecos Mellons. But, that is 65 miles from the proposed plant.

If anybody knows where they will get water, let me know.



Date: 01/20/12 19:27
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: Narniaman

tomstp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read about this over a year ago. I have asked
> many people the following question: 15 miles
> west of Odessa, Tx where on earth are they going
> to get the water needed to make steam at a power
> plant? I have not gotten an answer.
>
> Odessa Tx is pure desert, maybe not to the extent
> of southern Arizona or Death Valley Calif, but it
> is dry desert with no rivers and less than 17" of
> rain a year and not even close to that for the
> last several years. Last year they went over 360
> days with NO RAIN. Even the mesquite trees out
> there rarely get over 5 feet tall, many not over 2
> feet.
>
> In Pecos, many miles west there is the Pecos River
> but, it is a joke to call it a river. Rarely does
> it have water in it. There is underground water
> irrigating Pecos Mellons. But, that is 65 miles
> from the proposed plant.
>
> If anybody knows where they will get water, let me
> know.

You do realize that the "steam" is recycled in a steam power plant, don't you?

It's a closed system -- after the steam goes through the turbines it goes to a cooling condenser where it changes back in to water, which is then pumped back to the boilers.

It is true that some steam power plants use water in a cooling tower that functions as a condenser. That can come from a variety of sources, including things like treated sewage water which I suppose they could get from Odessa.

As far as the Pecos river being a joke of a river . . . . .I don't know what the numbers are for the Pecos river, but the typical southwest river has a considerable portion of it's flow underground.



Date: 01/21/12 05:57
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: WrongWayMurphy

tomstp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read about this over a year ago. I have asked
> many people the following question: 15 miles
> west of Odessa, Tx where on earth are they going
> to get the water needed to make steam at a power
> plant? I have not gotten an answer.
>
> Odessa Tx is pure desert, maybe not to the extent
> of southern Arizona or Death Valley Calif, but it
> is dry desert with no rivers and less than 17" of
> rain a year and not even close to that for the
> last several years. Last year they went over 360
> days with NO RAIN. Even the mesquite trees out
> there rarely get over 5 feet tall, many not over 2
> feet.
>
> In Pecos, many miles west there is the Pecos River
> but, it is a joke to call it a river. Rarely does
> it have water in it. There is underground water
> irrigating Pecos Mellons. But, that is 65 miles
> from the proposed plant.
>
> If anybody knows where they will get water, let me
> know.

Water wells. Wells provide make-up water for cooling towers (large banks of large cooling towers)
that recycle the cooling water with the wells keeping the supply plentished. I have been to
the large plants at Amarillo (Harrington Station and Nichols Station), Jones Station in Lubbock,
and Cunningham Station and Hobbs Generating Station in Hobbs, and Plant X in Muleshoe, and they
all operate this way. Those plants are a pump vendor's dream.



Date: 01/21/12 07:26
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: tomstp

Argyle, did ja sell em any pumps?



Date: 01/21/12 10:33
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: mustraline

<<<<<<<Water wells. Wells provide make-up water for cooling towers>>>>>>>>

That water was part of Boone Pickens pipeline to the DFW area. The DFW area is running out of water, even in rainy time. Overpopulation in a semi-desert.



Date: 01/21/12 11:14
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: Lackawanna484

mustraline Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<<<<<>>>>>>>
>
> That water was part of Boone Pickens pipeline to
> the DFW area. The DFW area is running out of
> water, even in rainy time. Overpopulation in a
> semi-desert.

Some folks believe that fresh clean water may become as valuable as oil in the not distant future.

That probably over states the case, but some pretty dry places use a lot of water. Las Vegas, Phoenix, Jidda, Tel Aviv, Cairo, Sydney, Dallas, for starters...



Date: 01/21/12 12:41
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: darkcloud

mustraline Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<<<<<>>>>>>>
>
> That water was part of Boone Pickens pipeline to
> the DFW area. The DFW area is running out of
> water, even in rainy time. Overpopulation in a
> semi-desert.


DFW is hardly a semi-desert, averaging 42" of rain per year on the eastern side of the metro. They have several options to expand their water capacities as population grows, including reservoir proposals to the northeast (not including the one to the southeast near the Texas State Railroad that was shot down.) The issues are more about finding the cheapest realistic alternatives than any true limits.

In the worst case scenario they could put in desalination plants on the Gulf Coast and swap reservoir rights with Houston. There is also always the option of refilling aquifers by connecting them to the reservoir and desalination systems. Similar to how Arizona and their CAP project often refills their vast underground aquifers (in an actual desert.) Again, just a matter of cost, how soon are more desalination plants needed and cost effective. You could put 10 times the population of the US in Texas and still have plenty of water, the ocean isn't going to run out.

As to West Texas, I guess many don't realize how big the Ogallala Aquifer is, running from SD deep into TX. Plus there are other aquifers out there, too. Here's a good map of US aquifers:

http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2012/finalwebsite/images/groundwater3.jpg

Used to, in a time long ago, the media would report such facts. But now they have agendas and often ignore/spin facts that counter whatever poli-myths they are pushing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/12 12:54 by darkcloud.



Date: 01/21/12 15:09
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: mustraline

<<<<<<<<DFW is hardly a semi-desert, averaging 42" of rain per year on the eastern side of the metro.>>>>>>>>

Hardly. The Northeast quadrant of the DFW metroplex has been on level 3 or higher water restrictions for nearly a year. In Fort Worth, reservoir planning that was proposed by the Corps of Engineers and later rejected by the legislature is listed in the top 10 places in the US that are running out of water. Las Vegas, and Phoenix are in worse shape.



Date: 01/21/12 17:15
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: lwilton

Even if you are in the middle of a fresh-water lake, these days there is no assurance that this means you will have access to drinking water, much less water for the lawn (if you have one). We have pretty good politicians and pressure groups that can assure you of not having access to the water around you. If you are in a condition where you might need to build a reservour, you are in worse chape, because the activists will bring up that horrible fish-destroying word DAM. Even if there is no running water currently and hasn't been in recorded history.



Date: 01/21/12 22:05
Re: New "Clean" Power Plant Texas
Author: ts1457

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As to West Texas, I guess many don't realize how
> big the Ogallala Aquifer is, running from SD deep
> into TX. Plus there are other aquifers out there,
> too. Here's a good map of US aquifers:
>
> http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2012/finalwebsite/i
> mages/groundwater3.jpg

That's an interesting map. The aquifers are a bit more complex than one might imagine. I would think the first step in preserving the water resources would be to properly price their usage. Refilling by desalinization sounds pretty expensive.



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