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Date: 04/17/12 17:40
Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: camelot7unplugged

http://www.evjcc.org/index.php?src=news&srctype=detail&category=Holocaust%20Museum&refno=11



Arizona’s first Holocaust & Tolerance museum artifact — a Holocaust-era rail car from Macedonia — shall be revealed at the East Valley JCC’s Yom Ha’Shoah commemoration on April 17. Beginning at 4:30 p.m., the public is welcome to view the car, the only one of its kind west of the Mississippi at the Chandler Center for the Arts. Directly following, guests can attend Colonel Edward Shames: A War Hero Remembers at 6:30 p.m. World War II Veteran Colonel Shames will share for the first time his experiences liberating the Dachau concentration camp.




Date: 04/17/12 17:48
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: zuco74

Wow.. I am a history nut and WWII fanatic and I would love to see this car in person. Just the historic significance alone is worth the trip out there. Just 2 weeks ago I re watched the movie "Schindler's List" and these type of cars appear in a few powerful scenes.

Thanks for posting this info.

Tony



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/12 17:49 by zuco74.



Date: 04/17/12 18:09
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: 90mac

40 & 8, forty men or 8 horses.
90mac



Date: 04/17/12 18:14
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: rattenne

The article does not state the car is known to have actually transported victims (at least, that I could see). Still, it would be very interesting to see the exhibit just the same.



Date: 04/17/12 18:34
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: camelot7unplugged

rattenne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The article does not state the car is known to
> have actually transported victims (at least, that
> I could see). Still, it would be very interesting
> to see the exhibit just the same.


I've email The Museum of Tolerance and asked this question, I will post
their reply.



Date: 04/17/12 18:47
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: needles_sub

I did read somewhere tha this car was used to transport people to the death camps.



Date: 04/17/12 18:56
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: Pullman




Date: 04/17/12 19:51
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: RuleG

Thanks, camelot, for posting this.

Over the weekend I read the following:

Despite the many demands on railways to move troops and material, assignment of locomotives for trains transporting Jews to the death camps was a top priority for railways in Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe.

Once on the road, the trains had low priority and often had to go into sidings for other trains.

Guards were assigned to the trains to shoot anyone who tried to escape.

As many as five thousand deportees were crammed into trains. No food, water or sanitary facilities were provided. Under such conditions, many, particularly the young and old did not make it to their destinations.



Date: 04/17/12 21:32
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: esprrfan

There is one on display at the US Air Force Museum in Fairborn (near Dayton) Ohio. Free open to the public too but you better plan atleast a day there.



Date: 04/17/12 21:35
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: BRAtkinson

4 years ago, I had some time to kill between trains in Washington DC and set out to see part of the Smithsonian I hadn't seen before. When I got off the subway, I saw the sign for the Holocaust museum and went there, instead.

I am still awestruck that humans could have treated others the way they did. The levels of cruelty evidenced in the museum exhibits is beyond comprehension. What occurred in the death camps, unimaginable.

Surprisingly, or not suprisingly, really, is that nobody said a word. Not one word, while walking through the museum. The silence in the museum can only be considered a tribute to the millions of voices silenced by the Nazis.



Date: 04/17/12 22:11
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: coaststarlight99

Very powerful. I would very much like to visit this piece of history.



Date: 04/18/12 01:39
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: lwilton

Hopefully people get the message that if it happened once it could happen again, maybe to some other group. Or maybe even the same group. It is worth being a little vigilant.



Date: 04/18/12 06:59
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: coaststarlight99

lwilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hopefully people get the message that if it
> happened once it could happen again, maybe to some
> other group. Or maybe even the same group. It is
> worth being a little vigilant.

History tends to repeat itself, unfortunately. I could go on a rant right now, but I won't. But yes, this could certainly happen again and the masses can get brainwashed by a young, energetic, polarizing leader who promises lots of things to the people.



Date: 04/18/12 08:38
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: Lackawanna484

RuleG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks, camelot, for posting this.
>
> Over the weekend I read the following:
>
> Despite the many demands on railways to move
> troops and material, assignment of locomotives for
> trains transporting Jews to the death camps was a
> top priority for railways in Germany and
> Nazi-occupied Europe.
>
> Once on the road, the trains had low priority and
> often had to go into sidings for other trains.
>
> Guards were assigned to the trains to shoot anyone
> who tried to escape.
>
> As many as five thousand deportees were crammed
> into trains. No food, water or sanitary
> facilities were provided. Under such conditions,
> many, particularly the young and old did not make
> it to their destinations.

Depending on the railway company involved, "excursion fares" were charged to the military for transport of the prisoners. The SNCF, SNCB, etc records of bills presented and paid are chilling.



Date: 04/18/12 09:02
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: TAW

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RuleG Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thanks, camelot, for posting this.
> >
> > Over the weekend I read the following:
> >
> > Despite the many demands on railways to move
> > troops and material, assignment of locomotives
> for
> > trains transporting Jews to the death camps was
> a
> > top priority for railways in Germany and
> > Nazi-occupied Europe.
> >
> > Once on the road, the trains had low priority
> and
> > often had to go into sidings for other trains.
> >
> > Guards were assigned to the trains to shoot
> anyone
> > who tried to escape.
> >
> > As many as five thousand deportees were crammed
> > into trains. No food, water or sanitary
> > facilities were provided. Under such
> conditions,
> > many, particularly the young and old did not
> make
> > it to their destinations.
>
> Depending on the railway company involved,
> "excursion fares" were charged to the military for
> transport of the prisoners. The SNCF, SNCB, etc
> records of bills presented and paid are chilling.

I have a book of the history of Deutsche Reichsbahn that explains that the managers of the railway were not Nazis. Actually, the Reichsbahn had two different color railroad uniforms, those for the Nazis and those for the others. Top management were not. It seems like almost a mutual destruction standoff. The Nazis needed the nonbelievers because they needed the railroad and there were not enough of them with sufficient knowledge to do it. The nonbelievers were needed, but could still be killed for 'misbehaving.' I understand from another source that SNCF was in a similar circumstance. Lots of SNCF employees were killed by the Nazis for 'misbehaving.' Reichsbahn charged the Nazis for all rail service. Nothing was free. They tried to keep the relationship as close to a strictly business level as possible. Again, I have read the same of SNCF but not stated so definitively. The US found that not only were the DR management and employees of no danger, but they were such competent rails that the operation was returned to them within a few months of the end of the war.

TAW

THOMAS WHITE
MOUNTLAKE TERRACE, WA
Rail Transportation/Train Dispatchi



Date: 04/18/12 17:47
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: Lackawanna484

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> (snip)
> >
> > Depending on the railway company involved,
> > "excursion fares" were charged to the military
> for
> > transport of the prisoners. The SNCF, SNCB,
> etc
> > records of bills presented and paid are
> chilling.
>
> I have a book of the history of Deutsche
> Reichsbahn that explains that the managers of the
> railway were not Nazis. Actually, the Reichsbahn
> had two different color railroad uniforms, those
> for the Nazis and those for the others. Top
> management were not. It seems like almost a mutual
> destruction standoff. The Nazis needed the
> nonbelievers because they needed the railroad and
> there were not enough of them with sufficient
> knowledge to do it. The nonbelievers were needed,
> but could still be killed for 'misbehaving.' I
> understand from another source that SNCF was in a
> similar circumstance. Lots of SNCF employees were
> killed by the Nazis for 'misbehaving.' Reichsbahn
> charged the Nazis for all rail service. Nothing
> was free. They tried to keep the relationship as
> close to a strictly business level as possible.
> Again, I have read the same of SNCF but not stated
> so definitively. The US found that not only were
> the DR management and employees of no danger, but
> they were such competent rails that the operation
> was returned to them within a few months of the
> end of the war.
>
> TAW


The services rendered by SNCF to the Occupiers are part of the argument by several groups against allowing SNCF related companies manage rail projects in the US. The SNCF argument, simply put, is they were compelled at gun point to provide services. The counter argument is SNCF actively assisted in and profited from the removal of French people to their certain death.

There are two monuments adjacent to the SNCF station in Chartres, west of Paris. One is in memory of the French railway workers of Jewish background who were deported and killed. The other is in memory of French railway workers who died in the struggle to regain French freedom. Some of the latter group were killed in Allied bombings of their workplaces, others died in French military service or POW status, while many others were killed in retaliation for sabotage.

On both my visits, the area around the monuments was well tended and landscaped. Undoubtedly by people who care very much for their dead confreres.



Date: 04/18/12 18:26
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: TAW

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The services rendered by SNCF to the Occupiers are
> part of the argument by several groups against
> allowing SNCF related companies manage rail
> projects in the US.

I work for one of them. The entire concept of that requirement is pathetic, amplified by the fact that there is no such requirement of Siemens or other German companies.


> The SNCF argument, simply put,
> is they were compelled at gun point to provide
> services. The counter argument is SNCF actively
> assisted in and profited from the removal of
> French people to their certain death.

Walk a mile in their shoes - or even 113 feet. The point was trying to keep a business relationship with the Nazis rather than collaborating with them. Is there a small difference? Yes. Is it an important difference? Yes. Was it profiteering on the misery of others? No. Staying alive allows one to fight for the cause yet another day, in however small a way. There is a question in the emergency services that is supposed to help draw a line between heroism and doing something dumb: "Who will rescue the rescuer?" It applies.

>
> There are two monuments adjacent to the SNCF
> station in Chartres, west of Paris. One is in
> memory of the French railway workers of Jewish
> background who were deported and killed. The other
> is in memory of French railway workers who died in
> the struggle to regain French freedom. Some of the
> latter group were killed in Allied bombings of
> their workplaces, others died in French military
> service or POW status, while many others were
> killed in retaliation for sabotage.

I hope that Americans who hate the French out of principle never have to walk in the shoes they were in. That goes for the German railwaymen (and other non-Nazi Germans for that matter) too. American rails have come close to having that kind of guts. The rails who went to Europe to run the railroads during WWII had that kind of guts. Some of them were my mentors. At least they only had to worry about bombings and strafing. They didn't have to worry about their families and being hauled off the job and executed. Check out my stories about working on the south and west side of Chicago in the 60s. Check the SP guys' stories about working in LA. I bet many non-rails and other folks who might be judgmental couldn't cut it.

TAW

THOMAS WHITE
MOUNTLAKE TERRACE, WA
Rail Transportation/Train Dispatchi



Date: 04/18/12 18:59
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: upkpfan

It says 49 came over but there is only 43 now. What happened to the other 6 as there was one for each state then. There is one at Hays, KS. upkpfan



Date: 04/18/12 19:55
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: eminence_grise

Is this a "Merci" car presented to the US after WW2 by France, or a newly imported WW2 ear freight car?. It looks bigger than a "Merci"



Date: 04/18/12 23:49
Re: Holocaust era rail car on Display in Chandler AZ
Author: ACR_Ted

Here is a link to the Scottsdale (AZ) Railroad Park's page about their 40 et 8 car....are these the same cars?

Ted


http://therailroadpark.com/merci.htm



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