Western Railroad Discussion > Railroad's responsibility vs Trespassers Death of the

Last weekend, The St. Louis Post Dispatch ran a series of articles that I believed portrayed railroads in a bad light. We started talking about it on last week's Let's Talk Trains. I continued to read the stories and tried to contact the reporter for more information. The articles mention several sources such as parents, Transportation Research Institutes of universities. Police records and even an former official of the AAR. I have invited a local police officer and two train station coordinators on this week's show, to I guess you would say, verify the accuracy of the series. My questions to this group are (1) Are railroads doing enough to discourage trespassing and (2) what if anything should the railroads do further. You can go to their website at http://www.stltoday.com/news/special-reports/rails Be sure and read the readers comments at the bottom.

Please leave your answers and comments here and I will try and bring them up on this Saturday's show.

Theodore Picraux
St. Peters, MO
Shuttletrain's Wanderings

Ted,

This conversation has been going on as long as there has been railroads.

Even fencing them (as is done in the UK, probably because William Huskisson, the popular Member of Parliament for Liverpool, was killed at the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester.) is not a true answer.

Even here in California. Where CalTrain (SF to SJ commute line) has erected fencing. It has not stopped folks from getting on the line. People will even cut hole in the fencing or knock it down if they feel it is in their way.

I'm a complete believer in Operation Life Saver and other campaigns. The railroads and the local, county and state policing agencies all cooperate but it never seems to be enough.

J.

J.Ferris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ted,
>
> This conversation has been going on as long as
> there has been railroads.
>
> Even fencing them (as is done in the UK, probably
> because William Huskisson, the popular Member of
> Parliament for Liverpool, was killed at the
> opening of the Liverpool and Manchester.) is not a
> true answer.
>
> Even here in California. Where CalTrain (SF to SJ
> commute line) has erected fencing. It has not
> stopped folks from getting on the line. People
> will even cut hole in the fencing or knock it down
> if they feel it is in their way.
>
> I'm a complete believer in Operation Life Saver
> and other campaigns. The railroads and the local,
> county and state policing agencies all cooperate
> but it never seems to be enough.
>
> J.

The series implies that because the railroads don't run or fund OLI anymore just goes to show that they could care less.

Theodore Picraux
St. Peters, MO
Shuttletrain's Wanderings

In the words of Ron White:

"You can't fix stupid."

My definition of stupid is being run over by a train.

I posted yesterday about A trespasser being hit. It was not well received, as I got a couple PM's and a few negative remark's. People were complaining about trespasser deaths being posted here and that it should not be aloud. All comment's except my original post were erased.... And here we are today, a day later and more post of people being hit...... I wonder if the person posting this and about the Sac women will receive similar PM's as I did?

Doing yourself via a train is en vogue. Stylish, modern, hip. And, if you do it right, you can make it look enough like an accident that the insurance company will have no choice but to pay out the policy...no amount of fences, gates, whatever you want...is going to stop folks....nothing. Of the rest, 80% are stupid people, 15% are true accidents and the last 5% are "we just don't know"....

No different than walking down the middle of the runway and getting run over by a 747.

ddg Wrote:
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> No different than walking down the middle of the
> runway and getting run over by a 747.

Funny how that never happens...fences? Security? Or do people simply accept that airports are not a good place to walk... familiarity breeds a lack of caution. Perhaps there is a need for the railroads to get into education.

As we speak, no one is asking the roads department what they are doing to prevent jaywalking. Many more people are killed and injured this way every day than by rail trespass.

Posted from Android

Fred Harrison
Central Point, OR
CORPpower/JSS/EORS

Fred gave my thoughts too. Here in the Atlanta suburbs, yesterday we had a 5 year old run over by a FedEx truck in an apartment parking lot. In the metro Atlanta area almost daily there is a story on the radio traffic reports of a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle. What makes the newscasts are the unusual stories such as a trespasser struck by train or kid struck by car while getting off the bus.

Is there statistical data showing an increase in the number of people being hit by trains? Logic would seem to suggest the number of incidents would be down as there are still not as many trains running today as there were 5 years ago.

Facts are, when one puts him/herself in harms way, accidents happen. Who was it that said "Common sense ain't so common"?

The most recent statistic that surprised me was the number of people killed in the past year by wrong way drivers on expressways. 360 people! Isn't that close to the number of people killed at RR crossings? And the number of pedestrians killed on RR tracks? Governments solution for preventing wrong way drivers--better signs and breath analyzers for all convicted of DUI. I do not believe either of these will reduce the count by any statistically measurable amount.

Jay

In a well to do suburb north of Chicago near a high school there was a fence along the right of way that kept getting cut, repaired and then cut again. The authorities found a bolt cutter stashed in the weeds near said reappearing holes. When the authorities started doing sweeps in the area the students arrested offered to pay their bail and or fines on the spot.

CB

In India, the trains hit trespassers all the time. The trains just keep going, from what I've seen.

T/O posts, I think this is a case by case problem. If there is something particular about the case in terms of train service or the victim then I think it is fine. However, in the past there were way too many cases of "trespasser hit by train" almost sounding gleeful with the usual responses.

Railroad responsibilities. I am not sure what railroads should do. Even fencing can have unintended negative results.
However the need to take reasonable measures is the duty of every property owner. That can go from a backyard pool to a power substation,
etc etc. Power lines have signs warning of high voltage, duh?, but they do.

When I was 12 I was on a frozen river and walked too close to water outlet and went in waist deep and luckily came right out and up on the ice.
Today you will often see some type of warning sign. For a 12 year old it was an attractive nuisance and the sign is an inexpensive warning to "stupid" kids.

Bob Jordan

Trespasser deaths are an acknowledged problem. FRA tracks them, and they're the only category of deaths that has been increasing over the years. Employee, contractor, and grade crossing fatalities have all declined.

Fencing 150,000 miles of ROW is a financial impossibility, nor would it necessarily stop trespassing. Most rights of way are posted with "no trespassing" signs and, in some cases, warnings about high speed trains. That doesn't seem to stop anyone.

Part of the problem is that railroads have become an "invisible industry". Busy streets are an obvious hazard. A seemingly quiet and empty railroad track is not. I don't know how to raise the consciousness of people that railroad tracks are not appropriate as shortcut routes, as backdrops for photos, or as places to "hang out".

I've been in the industry for 35 years. I have a North American railroad map on my wall. If I had a dollar for everyone who looks at it and exclaims, "I didn't know there were so many railroads!", I could have retired long ago. The concept of a continent-wide, privately owned, transportation network is simply alien to most modern Americans. That's part of the problem. People regard railroads as public spaces. They are not.

The articles infer that some transit lines enjoy a better safety record because of fencing. They don't mention that beyond the first few, everybody seems to get the message about the 3rd rail . . .

Now on to : "How good do our border fences work?"

RailNet802, over

Not long ago engineer I was working faced a car sitting on the track, which at the last minute moved to avoid being hit. Engr didn't put the train in emergency but we weren't sure if they were playing chicken or what. We thought maybe someone was trying to commit suicide since that seems to be the" in thing" to do now, but like I told the engineer I don't know why people who want to commit suicide do find a water tower and jump off; no reason to ruin our day.

A number of years ago, teenagers cut a hole in the fence so they could cross the tracks at Haig St. in Portland, Ore. One young man got killed. What is so unusual about this? There is a pedestrian overpass at the same location, less than 10 feet away from where the hole was cut.

Anyone who drives very much anymore can attest to the fact that people are in a tremendous hurry and will take shortcuts whenever they can. I sometimes comment that everyone thinks they are Indy 500 drivers. The same short-sighted viewpoint affects pedestrians too.

Costanza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doing yourself via a train is en vogue. Stylish,
> modern, hip. And, if you do it right, you can make
> it look enough like an accident that the insurance
> company will have no choice but to pay out the
> policy...no amount of fences, gates, whatever you
> want...is going to stop folks....nothing. Of the
> rest, 80% are stupid people, 15% are true
> accidents and the last 5% are "we just don't
> know"....

I don't know if "doing yourself via a train is en vogue." However, if you believe really believe this to be true, then look no further than former Metra Execitive Director Phil Pagano, who killed himself by jumping in the path of a Metra train. Hardly sets a good example then one of the nation's top rail executives uses a one of his own trains to kill himself.

Thing that still irritates me are the stupid lawsuits that survivors of family members do when it comes to train accidents, especally that crap that happened after the metrolink crash in Glendale, with the family members of the deceased blaming Metrolink for the crash caring less about the details on why the crash happened in the 1ST place! Crap like that really really sucks!

While it is probably not possible to keep 100% off the tracks, the railroad companies and the federal, state, and local governments can certainly do more than they are doing now. My impression is that we are making progress. Building more grade separations, and installing more, and more effective, barriers that keep people off the tracks.

When the light rail expo line in L A was in the planning stage many of us argued for better barriers where the tracks pass a high school and an elementary/middle school, and we got them. The line has been in operation for a few months, and so far so good.

Walter Johnson