Western Railroad Discussion > The "Big Hole" UP line Truckee - Roseville

I have been monitoring the radio traffic on live audio streaming for Truckee and keep hearing the term "Big Hole".

I assume it is referring to a long tunnel west of Truckee.

If not, what is it?

Thanks

Pat
South Austin, TX

Yes, that is the summit tunnel. The name goes back to SP days when there were two separated main tracks over the summit, both passing through tunnels. The newer line was built with a much longer tunnel; hence the name "big hole". The original line was pulled up by SP in the early 90s.

Best regards,

Rob L.

Tunnel 41.. Big Hole

If traffic increases, will they expand the Big Hole for 2 tracks or add rails to the old line?

ep75 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If traffic increases, will they expand the Big
> Hole for 2 tracks or add rails to the old line?

They will most likely put the original SP ROW back in. Expansion of the Big Hole would be too costly, because they would have to drill through solid granite.

Posted from Android

SPMW6600 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ep75 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If traffic increases, will they expand the Big
> > Hole for 2 tracks or add rails to the old line?
>
> They will most likely put the original SP ROW back
> in. Expansion of the Big Hole would be too
> costly, because they would have to drill through
> solid granite.
>
> Posted from Android


Not between Eder and Norden. Doable between Shed 10 and Switch 9

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SPMW6600 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ep75 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > If traffic increases, will they expand the
> Big
> > > Hole for 2 tracks or add rails to the old
> line?
> >
> > They will most likely put the original SP ROW
> back
> > in. Expansion of the Big Hole would be too
> > costly, because they would have to drill
> through
> > solid granite.
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
>
> Not between Eder and Norden. Doable between Shed
> 10 and Switch 9

When did T-41 become 2 miles of solid granite? If so where did the mud spots come from?

Have always been told when double track is surrendered it is gone forever.

I was on Donner a week or so ago and a detouring MNPRVB was coming through the Big Hole. Massive train, 4x1 power. In the Big Hole two of the engines died due to overheating (one was something due to some oil compression component failing) and they ended up almost stalling and having to stop at Norden to get the two that broke down back up and running.


How often does this happen and is there any designs like fans in the tunnel that can keep engines from choking on themselves in there?

Davis

All the time on heavy trains that were unpowered or had poorly working power.

JLY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WAF Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SPMW6600 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ep75 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > If traffic increases, will they expand the
> > Big
> > > > Hole for 2 tracks or add rails to the old
> > line?
> > >
> > > They will most likely put the original SP ROW
> > back
> > > in. Expansion of the Big Hole would be too
> > > costly, because they would have to drill
> > through
> > > solid granite.
> > >
> > > Posted from Android
> >
> >
> > Not between Eder and Norden. Doable between
> Shed
> > 10 and Switch 9
>
> When did T-41 become 2 miles of solid granite? If
> so where did the mud spots come from?
>
> Have always been told when double track is
> surrendered it is gone forever.

Nope. They're putting back a second track in Massachusetts between Springfield and Greenfield for the return of Amtrak service to that line. Further east, 7 miles being put back down between Wilmington and Lawrence, MA.

strench707 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was on Donner a week or so ago and a detouring
> MNPRVB was coming through the Big Hole. Massive
> train, 4x1 power. In the Big Hole two of the
> engines died due to overheating (one was something
> due to some oil compression component failing) and
> they ended up almost stalling and having to stop
> at Norden to get the two that broke down back up
> and running.
>
>
> How often does this happen and is there any
> designs like fans in the tunnel that can keep
> engines from choking on themselves in there?
>
> Davis

My first recollection of locomotives failing in overheating was when the century series Alcoas were introduced in about 1968 and clearances on the no.1 track did not allow west bound auto parts trains.
An F-7 A unit was placed on the point with instructions, as the trailing units failed and train would stall in the tunnel, the crew would cut the power off and go outside the tunnel and restart them and go back and get the train.
I don't believe there is any ventilation system in the tunnel.

JLY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...Have always been told when double track is
> surrendered it is gone forever...

Of course, when mergers result in a route receiving traffic off other routes, then it becomes cost-effective to replace the double track. Not there yet with traffic off the ex-WP. When capacity becomes an issue, after Shed 10 to Switch 9 is double-tracked on Donner, I'd expect UP to divert low-priority traffic to the Feather River Canyon.

mapboy

So there's a slight chance we might see something like this again?

You must be a registered subscriber to watch videos. Join Today!

JLY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> strench707 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was on Donner a week or so ago and a
> detouring
> > MNPRVB was coming through the Big Hole.
> Massive
> > train, 4x1 power. In the Big Hole two of the
> > engines died due to overheating (one was
> something
> > due to some oil compression component failing)
> and
> > they ended up almost stalling and having to
> stop
> > at Norden to get the two that broke down back
> up
> > and running.
> >
> >
> > How often does this happen and is there any
> > designs like fans in the tunnel that can keep
> > engines from choking on themselves in there?
> >
> > Davis
>
> My first recollection of locomotives failing in
> overheating was when the century series Alcoas
> were introduced in about 1968 and clearances on
> the no.1 track did not allow west bound auto parts
> trains.
> An F-7 A unit was placed on the point with
> instructions, as the trailing units failed and
> train would stall in the tunnel, the crew would
> cut the power off and go outside the tunnel and
> restart them and go back and get the train.
> I don't believe there is any ventilation system in
> the tunnel.


Backing out and restarting the helpers was still the plan going into the 90s

I give you a 1,000 to 1 odds you will

rob_l Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, that is the summit tunnel. The name goes back
> to SP days when there were two separated main
> tracks over the summit, both passing through
> tunnels. The newer line was built with a much
> longer tunnel; hence the name "big hole". The
> original line was pulled up by SP in the early
> 90s.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob L.

Tunnel 41 is historically and technically not the "summit tunnel".

The Summit Tunnel is the original (1860s) 1600 foot tunnel which is near the ski school parking lot on the highway. The ventilation shaft is visible from that parking lot. The physical summit of the original track (now a railroad maintenance road) is inside the Summit a Tunnel, which explains why ground and melt water flows both directions out of that bore,

Tunnel 41 is the Big Hole through which all trains now operate (bored through in the 1920s). The physical summit is just outside the concrete snowshed on the west end of a Tunnel 41, and ground and melt water flows only one direction through Tunnel 41 ... Downhill to the east.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/14 19:04 by contactpatch.

Semantics.

As you note, Tunnel 41 is the tunnel adjacent to the summit on the existing line, so I think it fair to call it the "summit tunnel."

I don't need a lesson on where the original summit tunnel was located. See attached.

Best regards,

Rob L.

---

Rob,

Beautiful image. I miss this location. I think my first ever Donner photo was taken here back around 1980.

So from this location where is the east portal of the Big Hole? Can I walk there from here without rappeling off a cliff to get to track level?

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Well, if you were to walk west through that snowshed and T6, when you come out, you turn left and when you reach a the narrow road it will take you to the tracks. Once at the tracks to your left is the snowshed entrance to T41.

Of course the easier way is via auto at the top of Donner Pass Rd is Sugar Bowl and ( unless this is all changed) there is a narrow road, which goes over the summit tunnel ( as described above) will take you down to the tracks. Thought I read once this is all blocked off now.

Alan,

Please see below.

fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rob,
>
> Beautiful image. I miss this location. I think my
> first ever Donner photo was taken here back around
> 1980.

Thanks much, Alan.

>
> So from this location where is the east portal of
> the Big Hole? Can I walk there from here without
> rappeling off a cliff to get to track level?
>

The Big Hole is far from this spot. I would think the best access route to Tunnel 41 would be to walk east from Norden.

Best regards,

Rob