Western Railroad Discussion > Bakken Oil: CA getting less by rail, more by barge

Surprise, surprise...if it won't move by rail it will move by barge. Will the "green" groups call these "bomb ships"??

http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-california-getting-more-bakken-crude-barge-rail-110729252--finance.htm

I can hear the alarm bells ringing inside EarthJustice's headquarters now...



Allen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/14 21:49 by bradleymckay.

so we are running barges to ND???

asheldrake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so we are running barges to ND???


That was my first thought, but it didn't sound right. My guess: Columbia River, Anacortes and Tacoma, WA.

If you ever confront or encounter an environmentalist who is RADICAL, like these folks are, ask them right then and there to give up their car. Ask them to never buy another gallon of gasoline.

These eco-Nazis (and they really are that--there's no compromising with them, and they'll try to shut you down) enjoy all the privileges of modern society, while complaining about the very things that give them mobility, food, shelter and jobs. It's insane.

Finally, any rational & reasonable person looks at the "realistic risk", not the absolute risk. For example:

--how many people died from drunk driving last year? (tens of thousands)
--how many died from food poisoning? (hundreds)
--how many died from gun shots? (thousands)
--how many died from domestic violence at home?
--how many died from weather induced storms? (hundreds?)

Now, how many died from unit oil train derailments of Bakken oil? Less than 50.

While no accident is acceptable, the realistic risk is key, and that's where environmentalists fail miserably. They mostly look at the absolute risk ("A train will derail and kill people!"), and ignore the realistic risk, because it totally dilutes their argument. Yes, a train will probably derail, and there is a chance people will die, or get hurt. That's a risk we all assume, living in an industrialized society. But how many people will die every day this week while driving to/from work, or from gun violence, or domestic violence? And that's the difference. This is an easy, safe target for them. If they had to confront gang members about gun violence, they'd be dead in a day, but that's where the greatest gains lie if you want to protest something.

I say this living in my apartment which is across the freeway from the 2nd biggest SUPERFUND clean-up site in the U.S. I can't even confidently drink my tap water, so I have to used bottled water. That's a real, immediate risk, but I chose to move and live here, and thus have to deal with it. If people don't want to be near rail lines, then move away from them, and protect yourself from any potential derailment and harmful effects.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/14 23:13 by coach.

Read the story and you can be smart again

I'll give some of the eco-partisans credit: Many of them ride bicycles, practice vegan lifestyles and live in small dwellings--and some of them are insufferably sanctimonious about it.

DNRY122 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll give some of the eco-partisans credit: Many
> of them ride bicycles, practice vegan lifestyles
> and live in small dwellings--and some of them are
> insufferably sanctimonious about it.

Yes, until they want to go to BURNING MAN or skiing. Then it's "Dude, who's got a van?"

You know what these Ecos should be protesting? All the pot farms in the public forests with armed guards, polluting streams and killing wildlife with rodentcides. Huge damage, including water diversions. But, nothing. All you hear is *silence.*



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/14 23:27 by coach.

I like the $30.00 fill ups lately.

coach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DNRY122 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'll give some of the eco-partisans credit:
> Many
> > of them ride bicycles, practice vegan
> lifestyles
> > and live in small dwellings--and some of them
> are
> > insufferably sanctimonious about it.
>
> Yes, until they want to go to BURNING MAN or
> skiing. Then it's "Dude, who's got a van?"
>
> You know what these Ecos should be protesting?
> All the pot farms in the public forests with armed
> guards, polluting streams and killing wildlife
> with rodentcides. Huge damage, including water
> diversions. But, nothing. All you hear is
> *silence.*

Here in weird Oregon, there's been quite a clash between the weed-growing hippies and the eco-crazy hippies. Some want to ban pot growing altogether. They are often the same people who are voting for Oregon to legalize marijuana for recreational use. I find that brainless environmentalists like this give us educated environmentalists a bad name. We're not all "NO OIL, NO BURNING OIL, NO CUTTING DOWN TREES!!!". People need wood, people need gas. But you can do something to take yourself out of the oil-based lifestyle. And yes, I support transport of oil by rail: it burns drastically less fuel than trucking it or barging it. And with barges, there's always the risk of spilling it into the sea.

Tor in Eugene

Torisgod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Here in weird Oregon, there's been quite a clash
> between the weed-growing hippies and the eco-crazy
> hippies. Some want to ban pot growing altogether.
> They are often the same people who are voting for
> Oregon to legalize marijuana for recreational use.
> I find that brainless environmentalists like this
> give us educated environmentalists a bad name.
> We're not all "NO OIL, NO BURNING OIL, NO CUTTING
> DOWN TREES!!!". People need wood, people need gas.
> But you can do something to take yourself out of
> the oil-based lifestyle. And yes, I support
> transport of oil by rail: it burns drastically
> less fuel than trucking it or barging it. And with
> barges, there's always the risk of spilling it
> into the sea.
>
> Tor in Eugene

A voice of reason. Hurrah.

coach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Finally, any rational & reasonable person looks at
> the "realistic risk", not the absolute risk. For
> example:
>
> --how many people died from drunk driving last
> year? (tens of thousands)
> --how many died from food poisoning? (hundreds)
> --how many died from gun shots? (thousands)
> --how many died from domestic violence at home?
> --how many died from weather induced storms?
> (hundreds?)
>
> Now, how many died from unit oil train derailments
> of Bakken oil? Less than 50.
>
Actually, the number is zero. think about that for a while.

I agree with most of the posts on this. But, until you get
the ear of the media like the "eco nazis" have, nothing will
happen.

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA

ntharalson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> coach Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Finally, any rational & reasonable person looks
> at
> > the "realistic risk", not the absolute risk.
> For
> > example:
> >
> > --how many people died from drunk driving last
> > year? (tens of thousands)
> > --how many died from food poisoning?
> (hundreds)
> > --how many died from gun shots? (thousands)
> > --how many died from domestic violence at home?
> > --how many died from weather induced storms?
> > (hundreds?)
> >
> > Now, how many died from unit oil train
> derailments
> > of Bakken oil? Less than 50.
> >
> Actually, the number is zero. think about that
> for a while.
>
> I agree with most of the posts on this. But,
> until you get
> the ear of the media like the "eco nazis" have,
> nothing will
> happen.
>
> Nick Tharalson,
> Marion, IA


Didn't the Lac-Megantic train originate in the Bakken?

That was an issue in the proper classification of volatile liquids, federal and provincial inspectors were all over North Dakota for weeks on that matter.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ntharalson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > coach Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > Finally, any rational & reasonable person
> looks
> > at
> > > the "realistic risk", not the absolute risk.
> > For
> > > example:
> > >
> > > --how many people died from drunk driving
> last
> > > year? (tens of thousands)
> > > --how many died from food poisoning?
> > (hundreds)
> > > --how many died from gun shots? (thousands)
> > > --how many died from domestic violence at
> home?
> > > --how many died from weather induced storms?
> > > (hundreds?)
> > >
> > > Now, how many died from unit oil train
> > derailments
> > > of Bakken oil? Less than 50.
> > >
> > Actually, the number is zero. think about that
> > for a while.
> >
> > I agree with most of the posts on this. But,
> > until you get
> > the ear of the media like the "eco nazis" have,
> > nothing will
> > happen.
> >
> > Nick Tharalson,
> > Marion, IA
>
>
> Didn't the Lac-Megantic train originate in the
> Bakken?
>
> That was an issue in the proper classification of
> volatile liquids, federal and provincial
> inspectors were all over North Dakota for weeks on
> that matter.

Was also a case of a train crew not following the rules and securing the train properly.

Torisgod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> give us educated environmentalists a bad name...
>
> ...And yes, I support
> transport of oil by rail: it burns drastically
> less fuel than trucking it or barging it.
>
> Tor in Eugene


So highly educated that you don't have to be correct.

Barges on average are 1.5 to 3+ times more fuel efficient than trains, depending on various factors including length of comparable route, with/against currents, wind, grades, etc.

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Torisgod Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > give us educated environmentalists a bad
> name...
> >
> > ...And yes, I support
> > transport of oil by rail: it burns drastically
> > less fuel than trucking it or barging it.
> >
> > Tor in Eugene
>
>
> So highly educated that you don't have to be
> correct.
>
> Barges on average are 1.5 to 3+ times more fuel
> efficient than trains, depending on various
> factors including length of comparable route,
> with/against currents, wind, grades, etc.

Yes.

Barges are hauling a lot of oil in the NY area. The Port of Albany, on the Hudson River, loads barges with oil off the CP (and CSX, I believe) for destinations in NJ. Barges also haul oil delivered on CSX at Yorktown VA up to Philly area terminals. The huge barge terminal at Hayti MO takes rail oil and sends it down the Mississippi River to the refineries on the Gulf.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ntharalson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > coach Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > Finally, any rational & reasonable person
> looks
> > at
> > > the "realistic risk", not the absolute risk.
> > For
> > > example:
> > >
> > > --how many people died from drunk driving
> last
> > > year? (tens of thousands)
> > > --how many died from food poisoning?
> > (hundreds)
> > > --how many died from gun shots? (thousands)
> > > --how many died from domestic violence at
> home?
> > > --how many died from weather induced storms?
> > > (hundreds?)
> > >
> > > Now, how many died from unit oil train
> > derailments
> > > of Bakken oil? Less than 50.
> > >
> > Actually, the number is zero. think about that
> > for a while.
> >
> > I agree with most of the posts on this. But,
> > until you get
> > the ear of the media like the "eco nazis" have,
> > nothing will
> > happen.
> >
> > Nick Tharalson,
> > Marion, IA
>
>
> Didn't the Lac-Megantic train originate in the
> Bakken?
>
> That was an issue in the proper classification of
> volatile liquids, federal and provincial
> inspectors were all over North Dakota for weeks on
> that matter.

the Lac Megatanic train originated in the Baaken, but
the town is in Quebec. There have been NO deaths in
the United States attributable to Baaken Oil trains.

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA

ntharalson Wrote:
-----------------
>
> the Lac Megatanic train originated in the Baaken,
> but
> the town is in Quebec. There have been NO deaths
> in
> the United States attributable to Baaken Oil
> trains.
>
> Nick Tharalson,
> Marion, IA

Nor any since, anywhere!

The Lac Megatainic derailment was a big combination of improper train parking: not enough hand brakes and only leaving one engine running, and human errors: fire department shutting down that one unit due to the fire, and the RR employees not realizing that it was the only one that had been left running and not restarting a different unit.

Rob

SilvertonRR100 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ntharalson Wrote:
> -----------------
> >
> > the Lac Megatanic train originated in the
> Baaken,
> > but
> > the town is in Quebec. There have been NO
> deaths
> > in
> > the United States attributable to Baaken Oil
> > trains.
> >
> > Nick Tharalson,
> > Marion, IA
>
> Nor any since, anywhere!
>
> The Lac Megatainic derailment was a big
> combination of improper train parking: not enough
> hand brakes and only leaving one engine running,
> and human errors: fire department shutting down
> that one unit due to the fire, and the RR
> employees not realizing that it was the only one
> that had been left running and not restarting a
> different unit.
>
> Rob

lack of derail/s on the siding to protect the main

Posted from Android

ntharalson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ntharalson Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > coach Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Finally, any rational & reasonable person
> > looks
> > > at
> > > > the "realistic risk", not the absolute risk.
>
> > > For
> > > > example:
> > > >
> > > > --how many people died from drunk driving
> > last
> > > > year? (tens of thousands)
> > > > --how many died from food poisoning?
> > > (hundreds)
> > > > --how many died from gun shots?
> (thousands)
> > > > --how many died from domestic violence at
> > home?
> > > > --how many died from weather induced storms?
>
> > > > (hundreds?)
> > > >
> > > > Now, how many died from unit oil train
> > > derailments
> > > > of Bakken oil? Less than 50.
> > > >
> > > Actually, the number is zero. think about
> that
> > > for a while.
> > >
> > > I agree with most of the posts on this. But,
> > > until you get
> > > the ear of the media like the "eco nazis"
> have,
> > > nothing will
> > > happen.
> > >
> > > Nick Tharalson,
> > > Marion, IA
> >
> >
> > Didn't the Lac-Megantic train originate in the
> > Bakken?
> >
> > That was an issue in the proper classification
> of
> > volatile liquids, federal and provincial
> > inspectors were all over North Dakota for weeks
> on
> > that matter.
>
> the Lac Megatanic train originated in the Baaken,
> but
> the town is in Quebec. There have been NO deaths
> in
> the United States attributable to Baaken Oil
> trains.
>
> Nick Tharalson,
> Marion, IA

I'd agree with that qualification "deaths in the US". But note that some of it is dumb luck.

The MM&A train earlier passed through Montreal on the CP. Had the Lynchburg derailment / fireball on CSX happened a mile earlier it would have been in a downtown area. And had the Casselton train been hit by an opposing container in St Cloud or the Minneapolis area, the results and publicity would have been much worse.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart, but it's dangerous to rely on luck in place of training, management, and awareness

coach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you ever confront or encounter an
> environmentalist who is RADICAL, like these folks
> are, ask them right then and there to give up
> their car. Ask them to never buy another gallon
> of gasoline.
>
> These eco-Nazis (and they really are that--there's
> no compromising with them, and they'll try to shut
> you down) enjoy all the privileges of modern
> society, while complaining about the very things
> that give them mobility, food, shelter and jobs.
> It's insane.
>
> Finally, any rational & reasonable person looks at
> the "realistic risk", not the absolute risk. For
> example:
>
> --how many people died from drunk driving last
> year? (tens of thousands)
> --how many died from food poisoning? (hundreds)
> --how many died from gun shots? (thousands)
> --how many died from domestic violence at home?
> --how many died from weather induced storms?
> (hundreds?)
>
> Now, how many died from unit oil train derailments
> of Bakken oil? Less than 50.
>
> While no accident is acceptable, the realistic
> risk is key, and that's where environmentalists
> fail miserably. They mostly look at the absolute
> risk ("A train will derail and kill people!"), and
> ignore the realistic risk, because it totally
> dilutes their argument. Yes, a train will
> probably derail, and there is a chance people will
> die, or get hurt. That's a risk we all assume,
> living in an industrialized society. But how many
> people will die every day this week while driving
> to/from work, or from gun violence, or domestic
> violence? And that's the difference. This is an
> easy, safe target for them. If they had to
> confront gang members about gun violence, they'd
> be dead in a day, but that's where the greatest
> gains lie if you want to protest something.
>
> I say this living in my apartment which is across
> the freeway from the 2nd biggest SUPERFUND
> clean-up site in the U.S. I can't even
> confidently drink my tap water, so I have to used
> bottled water. That's a real, immediate risk, but
> I chose to move and live here, and thus have to
> deal with it. If people don't want to be near
> rail lines, then move away from them, and protect
> yourself from any potential derailment and harmful
> effects.


Good point coach, they're just as bad as the idiots who want less government, but for some reason they don't know what that is considering Regan's less government strategy wasn't much of anything at all back in the 80s!