Western Railroad Discussion > La Crosse judge temporarily halts new rail traffic

The good new is the Aurora sub work is complete with the new control points at the Savanna Depot coming on line this past weekend.  Up on the St Croix I noted singals are in place up to at least north of Alma with crews trenching cables for the CP at the power plant  Crews also assembling the switches at Stockhlom and noted that the Alma manual crossover has had points and frog removed on main2.  Winona Jct - Cochrane should be going online this week or next.  Back in La Crosse, WI two of the three bridges appear to be done for the 2nd main and the a long trainload of concrete ties has appeared in the yard.

But...
Judge temporarily halts new rail traffic
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/judge-allows-marsh-work-to-proceed-temporarily-halts-new-rail/article_87f7793e-8ecf-5c65-aaff-25cc6cdc413e.html

So when the track is complete and sits idle for the better part of a month I wonder how much the railroad will be suing the environmental group for lost revenue.

Posted from Android

Running a train

70s:

• Chief checks yards on the territory, power, crews, cabooses, determines that a train is needed
• call yard set up the train find out when it can be ready
• call the house and assign power
• call the board and set the call

80s

• Chief checks yards on the territory, power, crews, cabooses, determines that a train is needed
• Call bureaus at HQ and talk about it. Beg to run a train before meltdown occurs.
• call the yard to set up the train and find out when it can be ready
• call the house and assign power
• call the board and set the call

90s

• Trainmaster notices that meltdown is occurring, calls bureaus and asks for a train; doesn't want to admit melted down so says needed to prevent meltdown.
• train can be ready at 0300
• power bureau can have power at 1730
• crew bureau can have a crew at 0915
• 12 hour MofW window begins at 0700

21st Century

• Trainmaster notices that meltdown is occurring, calls bureaus and asks for a train; doesn't want to admit melted down so says needed to prevent meltdown
• HQ calls Federal Judge to ask court to determine if this train is new traffic
• train can be ready at 0300
• power bureau can have power at 1730
• crew bureau can have a crew at 0915
• 12 hour MofW window begins at 0700
• Federal Judge will present his finding in 30 days
• Appeal is filed
• Court date for appeal is set within 90 days
• Appeal does not overturn Federal Judge's findings
• Case on Supreme Court Calendar next year
• After three months of deliberation, Supreme Court determines that the initial Federal judge was correct in determining that this train is not new traffic
• HQ tells trainmaster that it is ok to run the train and prevent meltdown
• train can be ready at 0300
• power bureau can have power at 1730
• crew bureau can have a crew at 0915
• 12 hour MofW window begins at 0700

TAW

Now that's friggin' funny !
 

Bill Miller
Galt, ON

pyroman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The good new is the Aurora sub work is complete
> with the new control points at the Savanna Depot
> coming on line this past weekend.  Up on the St
> Croix I noted singals are in place up to at least
> north of Alma with crews trenching cables for the
> CP at the power plant  Crews also assembling the
> switches at Stockhlom and noted that the Alma
> manual crossover has had points and frog removed
> on main2.  Winona Jct - Cochrane should be going
> online this week or next.  Back in La Crosse,
> WI two of the three bridges appear to be done for
> the 2nd main and the a long trainload of concrete
> ties has appeared in the yard.
>
> But...
> Judge temporarily halts new rail traffic
> http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/judge-allows
> -marsh-work-to-proceed-temporarily-halts-new-rail/
> article_87f7793e-8ecf-5c65-aaff-25cc6cdc413e.html

Good to see the update Pyroman,  Enjoy all of your photos & updates on the Aurora & St. Croix Subs construction.  I left the BN in the 70's, a few years after the Mainline(Mendota Sub) was CTC'd.  We lost a lot of operators/towerman jobs but I could see their reasoning.
 

Robert Oloffson
Wyanet, IL

Drove from LaCrosse to the cities today. Saw the work at Stockholm. Saw no trains. Is that the norm during this project?

Posted from iPhone

only the federal judge can issue the order, not a state judge. it's limiting interstate commerce

1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> only the federal judge can issue the order, not a
> state judge. it's limiting interstate commerce

True, Judge Scott Horne is a county circuit judge for La Crosse County as I understand it.
Just more delay tactics.

Just curious: how does a judge halt "new" traffic?  An injunction would have to be very specific, and that could be easily defied by simply running more sections or other.  And as note above, I would think it would take about half an hour to get a federal court to tell that judge he has no jurisdiction.

Bruce

What if...
'New' traffic uses the 'old' track, and old traffic uses the new track, buy ONLY (wink-wink) as a passing siding.
Sounds expedient to me.
What if...
'New' traffic includes deliveries to local industries. And is delayed.
Always curious,
...Lorenzo

Just read an article on the judge's ruling: it was based on an environmental challenge, but the judge is allowing construction to move forward.  So not sure on the jurisdiction (environmental reviews of railroad projects are typically a local/state issue, so the judge may be correct).  I do business constantly where environmental reviews are used as tools to stop development/growth/projects.  The frustration is that there is no such thing as any project, any action, any drive to work, waking up, etc that does not have some environmental impact, and so the laws become very convenient tools to put the brakes on anything.  NIMBYs have been replaced by BANANAs: Build Absolutely Nothing Anytime Near Anyone. 

Okay, time for some fun: how many insects or other vital species are killed in the grill/windshield of a "development protester" (as opposed to an environmentalist, someone who I would say is rightly concerned about the environment) driving to a meeting to protest that development will harm various species?  How many insects/animals/species had their habitat displaced by the "development protester's" home construction?  And the construction of the roadway or path they drove on to get to a public hearing to opposed a railroad/building/airport/etc?  How about the power plant that provides the electricity for their Prius?  Or the alloys used in building their scooter? 

For me, a true environmentalist considers all options of the impact of humans, of pollution, etc.  The most environmentally sound decisions for transportation (freight anyway) is to allow railroads to grow, and convert over-the-road trucking (OTR) to rail.  Less pollution, less congestion (well, except for trains blocking crossings), safer (well, except for exploding trains). 

Just fun food for thought.

Bruce

That last comment reminds me of an environmentally-oriented bumper sticker I saw many years ago (on a fossil-fuel burning motor vehicle, of course):

"Do Something Good
for Planet Earth.
Drop Dead!"

In other worlds, people are going to affect the environment, it's a case of reducing the effects of human activities.
 

Add to "Running a Train" :

* MCO tells dispatcher to advise MofW they cannot have the track until hot train passes.  

* Hot train delayed for hours elsewhere and MofW never gets out.

* Massive and creative bs entered on next conference call.

Add to "Running a Train" : 

Today's morning meeting will be totally consumed with
discussing yesterday's failure.  Today's meltdown will start
while all management focus is on yesterday's failure. Today's
failure will be disected tomorrow.

Nice, sounds as good as the deal on the west coast where  a person bought some engines that are land locked. Was cutting some items off so they could be transported via truck. A person filed a complaint on environmental grounds, judge ordered a stop work on those grounds.
The problem>? He was using acetylene to cut steel with so now what does he do so he can move the engines???  No matter what he will need to remove things so it can be transported and due to the fact he bought them its up to him and has to move them cannot abandon them on site.

There is more to this than most people realize!   Seems like every time I need to talk to a chief dispatcher, assistant superintendent, or a superintendent, they are either on a conference call or preparing for the next one.  


Englewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Add to "Running a Train" : 
>
> Today's morning meeting will be totally consumed
> with
> discussing yesterday's failure.  Today's
> meltdown will start
> while all management focus is on yesterday's
> failure. Today's
> failure will be disected tomorrow.

Rathole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is more to this than most
> people realize!   Seems like every time I need
> to talk to a chief dispatcher, assistant
> superintendent, or a superintendent, they are
> either on a conference call or preparing for the
> next one.  
>
>
> Englewood Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Add to "Running a Train" : 
> >
> > Today's morning meeting will be totally
> consumed
> > with
> > discussing yesterday's failure.  Today's
> > meltdown will start
> > while all management focus is on yesterday's
> > failure. Today's
> > failure will be disected tomorrow.

BN reached the point of requiring train dispatchers to leave the chair and go to the conference room to participate in the regular morning conference call. Yes, really! It's ok to leave the chair for that as long as "the priorities have plenty of green."

Some time after I left the dispatching circus to play in a different circus, a former colleague called to tell me about a debacle that had become merely just another day down at the railroad. Pasco was straight across. They were not taking trains. Half of the sidings between Spokane and Pasco had a dead train with no crew, held out of Pasco. Spokane was doing the same. One siding shy of the other half of them was occupied by a dead train with no crew, held out of Spokane. It was 3rd trick. In a couple of hours, No 2 (UPS, let's see...ZPTLCHC9 maybe in todayspeak) would encounter 1027 (as in AMTK 27) somewhere between Spokane and Pasco. That somewhere was actually already nailed down pretty securely: the only open hole out there.

Spokane had a 671 Spokane-Pasco DOFT (Dirty Ol Freight Train) on duty. It was ready to go. Making up 671 was easy: gather up anything that isn't for east of Spokane and send it to Pasco. Spatch wouldn't let it out of Yardley. There was an argument. The trainmaster called the chief to report the insubordinate dispatcher and demand that 671 be moved. Spatch explained to the chief. The Chief called the trainmaster. The trainmaster called Ft Worth (dispatchers were still in Seattle). The control center ordered an all hands conference call. Spatch, the chief, and the local transportation manager shuffled off to the conference room. The participants, which included Ft Worth, Pasco, and Spokane (the dispatchers office didn't have sufficient rank to participate; they were merely there to implement the decision), made their case, citing Important People who would be upset if their side did not prevail. Spokane's Important People connection trumped Pasco's Important People connection and the decision was made: take 671 out of Yardley. Spatch asked where it was going. Why, to that open siding. You can't be saving sidings when there are trains that need them. OK fine.

Spatch goes back to the chair and lets 671 out of Spokane. 671 runs out to the one open hole, drops anchor, and takes the power to Pasco. See, it's all good. All you need to do is follow instructions.

Well..a while later, 1027 was ready to go at Spokane and....oh wow, 2 was ready to go at Pasco. Who could have predicted that? A 65 mile standoff for the two hottest trains on the railroad. No open sidings for 130 miles. Hey chief, do I hold 2 for 1027 or 1027 for 2? The answer: we'll have to have a conference call.

1027 was Really Late into Portland that night.

TAW



 

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rathole Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is more to this than most
> > people realize!   Seems like every time I
> need
> > to talk to a chief dispatcher, assistant
> > superintendent, or a superintendent, they are
> > either on a conference call or preparing for
> the
> > next one.  
> >
> >
> > Englewood Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Add to "Running a Train" : 
> > >
> > > Today's morning meeting will be totally
> > consumed
> > > with
> > > discussing yesterday's failure.  Today's
> > > meltdown will start
> > > while all management focus is on yesterday's
> > > failure. Today's
> > > failure will be disected tomorrow.
>
> BN reached the point of requiring train
> dispatchers to leave the chair and go to the
> conference room to participate in the regular
> morning conference call. Yes, really! It's ok to
> leave the chair for that as long as "the
> priorities have plenty of green."
>
> Some time after I left the dispatching circus to
> play in a different circus, a former colleague
> called to tell me about a debacle that had become
> merely just another day down at the railroad.
> Pasco was straight across. They were not taking
> trains. Half of the sidings between Spokane and
> Pasco had a dead train with no crew, held out of
> Pasco. Spokane was doing the same. One siding shy
> of the other half of them was occupied by a dead
> train with no crew, held out of Spokane. It was
> 3rd trick. In a couple of hours, No 2 (UPS, let's
> see...ZPTLCHC9 maybe in todayspeak) would
> encounter 1027 (as in AMTK 27) somewhere between
> Spokane and Pasco. That somewhere was actually
> already nailed down pretty securely: the only open
> hole out there.
>
> Spokane had a 671 Spokane-Pasco DOFT (Dirty Ol
> Freight Train) on duty. It was ready to go. Making
> up 671 was easy: gather up anything that isn't for
> east of Spokane and send it to Pasco. Spatch
> wouldn't let it out of Yardley. There was an
> argument. The trainmaster called the chief to
> report the insubordinate dispatcher and demand
> that 671 be moved. Spatch explained to the chief.
> The Chief called the trainmaster. The trainmaster
> called Ft Worth (dispatchers were still in
> Seattle). The control center ordered an all hands
> conference call. Spatch, the chief, and the local
> transportation manager shuffled off to the
> conference room. The participants, which included
> Ft Worth, Pasco, and Spokane (the dispatchers
> office didn't have sufficient rank to participate;
> they were merely there to implement the decision),
> made their case, citing Important People who would
> be upset if their side did not prevail. Spokane's
> Important People connection trumped Pasco's
> Important People connection and the decision was
> made: take 671 out of Yardley. Spatch asked where
> it was going. Why, to that open siding. You can't
> be saving sidings when there are trains that need
> them. OK fine.
>
> Spatch goes back to the chair and lets 671 out of
> Spokane. 671 runs out to the one open hole, drops
> anchor, and takes the power to Pasco. See, it's
> all good. All you need to do is follow
> instructions.
>
> Well..a while later, 1027 was ready to go at
> Spokane and....oh wow, 2 was ready to go at Pasco.
> Who could have predicted that? A 65 mile standoff
> for the two hottest trains on the railroad. No
> open sidings for 130 miles. Hey chief, do I hold 2
> for 1027 or 1027 for 2? The answer: we'll have to
> have a conference call.
>
> 1027 was Really Late into Portland that night.
>
> TAW
>
>Great story.  Another under the heading "You can't make this stuff up"
>
>  

Any legal system, given the chance will screw things up tighter than a jar lid.
The environmentalists really need to give their head a shake and ask why the
need for new track in the first place.
The fracking process which produces the oil is where the problem started.
If "the environmentalists had any brains" they'd be complaining about the
sourcing of the oil, not the method of transport or an extra bridge
over the troubled waters of marshland for that matter.
And too, throw enough money at the problem, and there will be no
problem, legal or otherwise.

Bryce Lee
Burlington Ontario
 

Rathole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is more to this than most
> people realize!   Seems like every time I need
> to talk to a chief dispatcher, assistant
> superintendent, or a superintendent, they are
> either on a conference call or preparing for the
> next one.  
>
>


I can remember a few decades ago, the Conrail dispatchers would often say something like "my assistant"  will call for a taxi, or will ask the police to give a conductor a ride back to the front of the train, etc..  Haven't heard that, literally, in decades.

Trying to save a $30 an hour gopher DS's  assistant salary by tying up several trains sounds like a truly false economy...