Western Railroad Discussion > What is the best routing?

So, I want to hear some opinions from some of you out there that know a thing or two about the various railroad routings between Chicago and the Pacific Northwest (Portland & Seattle)  I am an engineer out of Pocatello and recently on a trip I got into a discussion about the various routings that UP and BNSF has between these points.  I believe that the UP routing through Wyoming and over the OSL is the shortest routing and with the fewest grades.  I believe that it also has the most 70mph track out of the various routings.  Is this true?   What are the pros and cons of the UP/NP/GN/CP?  I believe I heard at one time that the the former Milwaukee actually had the best routing.  I'd like to know more on the subject in the interest of knowing how competitive our line sits relative to the other routings.  Sorry, stupid question.  Does anyone want to enlighten me?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/16 22:29 by HogheadMike.

If this doesn't answer most of your questions, I don't know what will!

http://www.lexingtongroup.org/downloads/Lexington%20Grade%20Profiles.pdf

For lowest grades, you looking at BNSF's ex-GN over the Rockies to Spokane and then down through Pasco and the Columbia River Gorge. UP's route has always been troubled by the Blue Mountains of northeast Oregon. BNSF can bring a loaded grain train west with just three modern locomotives, UP...not so much!  That's why BNSF is a major player in the grain export business in the PNW, but most of the UP export grain moves over the CP's Crowsnest Pass.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

UP or someone should have ended up with the former Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension to preserve competition in the upper Midwest.  Another example of a federal government mistake.  This would have preserved competition from the Twin Cities, Dakotas, and Montana to the Pacific Northwest. This would have provided an alternative routing for UP not only to Seattle-Tacoma but also to Portland.

Indiana_Trainman Wrote:
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> UP or someone should have ended up with the former
> Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension to preserve
> competition in the upper Midwest.  Another
> example of a federal government mistake.  This
> would have preserved competition from the Twin
> Cities, Dakotas, and Montana to the Pacific
> Northwest. This would have provided an alternative
> routing for UP not only to Seattle-Tacoma but also
> to Portland.

Amen!  Totally right on.....

Milwaukee Road actually had more steep grades than it's rivals, St Paul Pass and Boylston Summit are two steep grades that NP managed to avoid with water level routes. In fact the 2.2% Rattlesnake grade between Boylston and Beverly was the steepest of the MILW transcon mainline. But for the real winner, the CN route in Canada managed to avoid any kind of steep grade allowing them to run ridiculously long trains with just a few locomotives.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

Then there was this canyon West of Ringling that watching a cab ride video requires Dramamine! A few bridges
in various places that required a bit of maintenance! Would have been nice to see it still in use but the rebuild costs
and enlargement for current double stacks would have been a really expensive endeavor.

Out

funnelfan Wrote:
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> For lowest grades, you looking at BNSF's ex-GN
> over the Rockies to Spokane and then down through
> Pasco and the Columbia River Gorge. 

BN should have kept the ex-SP&S line between Spokane and Pasco.  It was better engineered than the older, parallel NP line.  

Ask grain shippers in Northern Montana and the western Dakotas about their grain rates once the MILW was gone. It costs them more to ship west to Puget Sound where there is no competition than it does to Great Lakes ports where there is some CP competition.


​The steep MILW grades were not very long compared to others.

U.P. might have the shortest route between Chicago and Portland. However, they are really brought to their knees by the steep grades over the Blue Mts. Plus, U.P. doesn't help themselves by trying to run monster 'no fitter' manifest freights which create a dispatching nightmare and block high priority Z train traffic. There's an article about the impact of monster trains in the current issue of Trains magazine. The entire OSL/O-WR&N route really needs sidings extended in order to run a more fluid railroad.
An interesting historical fact, the Northern Pacific was almost owned by E.H. Harriman in the early 1900's during a fierce battle with J.J. Hill over 'the Nipper'. Harriman really wanted control of the Burlington and was using his stake in the NP as leverage. Wouldn't things be different today if Harriman had gained control of the NP!

BTW, what happened to the Railex 'Super Fruit' traffic? I understand they're running three times per week with short 15 car trains. These used to be sizable trains not so long ago.

Posted from iPhone

Part of the Railex issue is the availability of things to haul, we're nowhere near much of anything to harvest
though cherry season is approaching.

Out

GN-SP&S mileage Chicago to Portland is about
the same as UP, if UP is via Omaha. Looks
like UP is shorter via Blair, Granite Canyon
and Kuna than the shortest BN route.

BN is shorter to Seattle, of course.

CA_Sou_MA_Agent Wrote:
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> If this doesn't answer most of your questions, I
> don't know what will!
>
> http://www.lexingtongroup.org/downloads/Lexington%
> 20Grade%20Profiles.pdf

Thanks for the info!!  Great comprehensive, historical information here.  

Wow that was some excellent information!  As for the discussion on giant no-fitter trains, it has become a serious problem on the UP/OSL line.  Traffic has plummetted, so UP is now running 14,000 foot trains in both directions on many days.  Since the traffic levels are down, trains still move.  When the traffic levels recover, not so much.  It is my opinion that UP should be using this decline in traffic to invest the double tracking of key, priority corridors.  Suspend the dividend if they have to, just get it done.  Add real shareholder value by bringing our railroad into the 21st century.  No such luck however.  Instead Mr. Rob Knight believes that it is apropriate to buy back over a billion dollars worth of overvalued shares in the last two quarters.  Maybe I'm crazy, but we could be seing a bankruptcy of Union Pacific in the next decade with the poor management decisions that run rampid these days.

CA_Sou_MA_Agent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If this doesn't answer most of your questions, I
> don't know what will!
>
> http://www.lexingtongroup.org/downloads/Lexington%
> 20Grade%20Profiles.pdf

BN (now BNSF) has a very sizeable mileage advantage over UP between Seattle and Chicago.  However, between Portland and Chicago, the mileage difference is almost dead even.  This has made the Portland-Chicago corridor a good competitive battle between the BNSF and UP over the past year or so (since BNSF started running their Z-trains again in this corridor).  So far, UP has been able to hold onto the prized UPS business in this corridor, which they had taken away from BNSF a few years ago when BNSF had it's melt down.

funnelfan Wrote:
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> UP...not so much!  That's why BNSF is a major
> player in the grain export business in the PNW,
> but most of the UP export grain moves over the
> CP's Crowsnest Pass.

Actually, for the UP, it has more to do with markets.  Other than the above mentioned grain traffic off the CP at Eastport for the PNW ports, most of UP's grain (generic term) franchise moves south to Gulf ports from Nebraska, Kansas, etc.  PNW ports are not in as much of a competitive position for the grain business that originates from the more center of the US as the Gulf coast ports are.

The Grain traffic flowing over Crowsnest Pass and through Kingsgate to the UP for PNW ports is all off the former Soo Line. It is all US Grain that can't be readily exported via Canadian ports, but can transit Canada on its way to US PNW ports.