Western Railroad Discussion > Port of Oakland in the news again (railroad related)

In what was really a foregone conclusion port officials said "NO" to coal handling and storage.  There was no way in Hades coal handling and storage was ever going to happen there, not with both the Port of Stockton and Port of Richmond handling coal exports.  And the Port of Long Beach can handle export coal if necessary via Metropolitan Stevedore.  However they are not bending over backwards to do so.

The question is now just what are they going to do?  They are in a losing battle with the Ports of LA and Long Beach, especially for marine container imports.  Maritime companies are not interested in the Port of Oakland as the first west coast port of call on Asia-West Coast ship rotations...in California that honor goes to POLA and POLB.  Since it's clear port officials see the writing on the wall now (that they even considered coal exports was something close to a miracle) they need to come up with something fast.  I have thought for years it would be a perfect place for both potash and soda ash exports.  But the Port of Portland is miles ahead in that race.  OK so what about auto imports and exports?   I suspect thats what they are looking at long term.  But there are negatives with this idea too.  The Ports of Benicia and Richmond already handle a large volume of imports (as well as some exports).  Would the Port of Oakland try and cherry pick some of that business?  If so that could turn into a nasty soap opera between the Bay Area ports.

Whatever they decide will have an effect on both UP and BNSF in the Bay Area in the future.


Allen



 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/16 06:36 by bradleymckay.

Maritime news just had an artical which said the last of the container shipping lines had pulled out of Portland only off loading 150 containers on the last call.  

czuleget Wrote:
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> Maritime news just had an artical which said the
> last of the container shipping lines had pulled
> out of Portland only off loading 150 containers on
> the last call.  

Hanjin and Hapag Lloyd stopped calling there.  Containers are unloaded mostly at the  Port of Tacoma, then are drayed to Portland and back.  Since Tacoma is closer to Portland than Seattle it puts the Port of Seattle in a bad position even though the Port of Tacoma and Port of Seattle have an alliance agreement. 

Is either UP or BNSF moving any containers between Portland and Tacoma/Seattle? 


Allen

 

bradleymckay Wrote:

> Since Tacoma is closer to Portland than Seattle it
> puts the Port of Seattle in a bad position even
> though the Port of Tacoma and Port of Seattle have
> an alliance agreement. 

Hopefully the rest of your logic isn't as flawed as your geography.  Tacoma is about 30 miles from Seattle, and about 140 miles from Portland.

Elizabeth

Betsy, Allen just got the fold of the map in the wrong place.

Out

This is one of those cases where the written word can be read two ways. Brad meant that Tacoma is closer to Portland than Seattle is to Portland.

Betsy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bradleymckay Wrote:
>
> > Since Tacoma is closer to Portland than Seattle
> it
> > puts the Port of Seattle in a bad position even
> > though the Port of Tacoma and Port of Seattle
> have
> > an alliance agreement. 
>
> Hopefully the rest of your logic isn't as flawed
> as your geography.  Tacoma is about 30 miles from
> Seattle, and about 140 miles from Portland.
>
> Elizabeth

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

Either way maybe Stockton can jump on this for more traffic and $$$$

Posted from iPhone

funnelfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is one of those cases where the written word
> can be read two ways. Brad meant that Tacoma is
> closer to Portland than Seattle is to Portland.
>

I think you may be right, thanks for that clarification!  And having made that trip a few (hundred) times, I can confirm that Tacoma is closer to Portland than is Seattle.;-)

Elizabeth

I believe that the highway bridge at Astoria at the mouth of the Columbia river limits the size of ships that visit Portland. Oakland is so politically correct that they would rather go bankrupt than make a good decision and attract business!

wpdude Wrote:
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> I believe that the highway bridge at Astoria at
> the mouth of the Columbia river limits the size of
> ships that visit Portland. Oakland is so
> politically correct that they would rather go
> bankrupt than make a good decision and attract
> business!

The port produces a lot of good union jobs, and employs an abundance of Oakland residents. it would be a shame to see folks out of work.

During the strike, the statistics on local residents and average income for dock workers were pretty impressive.  Good wages, great benefits, and a lot of jobs.

I read some time ago (I forget when) that the Port of
Oakland was spending $1.1 billion on upgrading and
improving their port facility so they could load trains
directly from ships, with no trucks needed.  I thought
at that time that that was not at all practical because
there is no efficient way to get trains into and out of the
Bay Area.  There are a lot of trains -- mostly passenger --
on the Cal-P, and the line through Niles Canyon and over
Altamont Pass and to Tracy and beyond is only single-track.

And which West Coast US port most trans-Pacific ships will
choose to call at may hugely impact the PLA,. too.  Not that
that the PLA is ahuge player in this corporate soap opera --
it is not -- but those of us who love riding in historic RR
equipment and behind steam and historic diesels want
the PLA to be able to stay in Niles Canyon indefinitely,
which they may not be able to, if the Port of Oakland is
successful in getting a lotmore ships to call there, because
then UP might need to use the ex-SP ROW the PLais now using.

(FWIW -- I wish the Port of Oaklad’s land had been used to
construct anexact replica of the Panama Pacific International
Exposition -- and in timefor that Expositions Centennial last year
(2015).  The PPIE was, to me, the most wonderful and beautiful
exposition ever.  The “Tower of Jewels” had tohave been incredibly
beautiful, with thousands of cut and faceted 3-inch multicolored
Austrian crystal jewels dangling from many places on the exterior
of the Tower, sparkling in the sun, and in searchlight beams that
played on the Tower at night.  Just think of the tourists such a PPIE
replica could draw!  Mandatory RR content: the Overfair Railway
would,  of course, also be replicated.

Hey -- I can dream, can’t I?)

Only time will tell whether the Port of Oakland’s very ambitious and
very costly expansion will pay off.

Coos Bay.  I thought that was why Anschutz was interested in opening the Modoc.   

There have been proposals to build a Coal Export terminal in Coos Bay.  Fell apart but that was prior to
Fukishima.  Time to reconsider?  

sphogger

Also proposals for Grey's Harbor have been made

Posted from Android

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wpdude Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I believe that the highway bridge at Astoria
> at
> > the mouth of the Columbia river limits the size
> of
> > ships that visit Portland. Oakland is so
> > politically correct that they would rather go
> > bankrupt than make a good decision and attract
> > business!
>
> The port produces a lot of good union jobs, and
> employs an abundance of Oakland residents. it
> would be a shame to see folks out of work.
>
> During the strike, the statistics on local
> residents and average income for dock workers were
> pretty impressive.  Good wages, great benefits,
> and a lot of jobs.

With the astronomical cost of living in the Bay Area, the jobs angle is not as important as people think - off topic, but workers, whether high tech, or low, labor or management are leaving the area because of it. East Bay (including Oakland) jumped on the real estate valuation game last year, so new and young residents coming to the Bay Area are getting a sticker shock.

Regardless of jobs, attracting business as said by wpdude is the keyword, in my opinion. It's important to diversify economic activities in the area, especially since manufacturing has shrunk in past decades around here. Playing "entrepeneur" with restaurant napkins can only do so much.

Off topic, but long time residents of the East Bay can use this equation as reminder: Ron Dellums = anti-military = base closures = loss of economic activity.

funnelfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is one of those cases where the written word
> can be read two ways. Brad meant that Tacoma is
> closer to Portland than Seattle is to Portland.

Yes I did.  TY.  Wrote it with one eye open and no coffee.


Allen


 

Hamburg Sud was basically the last maritime shipper still running containers east on the UP out of Oakland to points in the Midwest, but that all stopped at the end of last year when HS moved their business south to LA/LB. About the only eb traffic you have now is the SLC/Denver business on the K trains, and that's now just a few times weekly.

​Hapag Lloyd used to be a big shipper on the UP out of Oakland up until a few years ago, at which time they too "saw the light" and took their business elsewhere, as did APL, Hanjin and Evergreen years ago.

​I know Oakland is more of a wb export terminal for empty marine containers returning for reloading, but not even a lot of that nowadays on the UP coming west.  ZNPOAs/KMNOAs handle some, but not in the numbers like it used to be. I remember the old IG2OA trains from a decade ago that were running daily, which then morphed into the IG3OAs a few years later that were only running 3-4 days per week. Those trains are now long gone from the picture and UP doesn't even run the extras out of the Chicago-area terminals that were going once or twice a week a couple of year's back. The old IOAG3 symbol became the KOAG3 and now handles ZERO maritime business - just domestic boxes.

​I don't know what kinds of business the BNSF is still doing out of OIG these days, but I would have to think that traffic has started dropping off as well, even with all of the maritime shippers the BNSF serves at that terminal.

​I agree with the OP that the Port of Oakland had better get it's act together and start looking at options, otherwise that terminal faces a dim future which is coming fast.

Biggs_Jct Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ​I don't know what kinds of business the BNSF is
> still doing out of OIG these days, but I would
> have to think that traffic has started dropping
> off as well, even with all of the maritime
> shippers the BNSF serves at that terminal.

Last week there was not one SOIGxxx train.  Bay Area Q trains seem to have a smattering of international cans, like 3 on the Q STOATG.  I did not see the Q RICCLO6, which might have a lot of marine cans.

mapboy

mapboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Last week there was not one SOIGxxx train.  Bay
> Area Q trains seem to have a smattering of
> international cans, like 3 on the Q STOATG.  I
> did not see the Q RICCLO6, which might have a lot
> of marine cans.

Guess that answers the BNSF part of the equation, thanks.

Biggs_Jct Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>(snip)
>
> ​I agree with the OP that the Port of Oakland
> had better get it's act together and start looking
> at options, otherwise that terminal faces a dim
> future which is coming fast.

Yes.  That was the thrust of my comment earlier in the thread. The port offers (offered?) a lot of good jobs for people with modest skill sets.  Lose those jobs and a lot of people may lose their income streams.

Although the Bay Area is filled with 19 year old FaceBook and twitter etc zillionaires, there are a lot of people who work on the docks, dray cargo, do repacks, etc.  Lose those jobs and the U-6 labor rate for Oakland Heyward will rise from its current 12%.  (U-6 includes discouraged workers, people who want full time jobs, people working below their skill level, etc.)

U-6 from the Bureau of Labor Statistics