Western Railroad Discussion > NTSB preliminary report collision at Panhandle, Texas

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/dca16fr008-preliminary.aspx#.V4fBZxNp5kk.facebook

It will be interesting to see the results of blood gas testing  on the crew of the eastbound train.  It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there was carbon monoxide in the cab.
 

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> It will be interesting to see the results of blood
> gas testing  on the crew of the eastbound
> train.  It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest
> if there was carbon monoxide in the cab.
>  

It baffles me that crew could not respond to the alerter.  Even asleep that will wake you up.  How can you go by several signals where some sort of action should be taken, then blow a red at 65 MPH unless they were knocked out by something like you suggested.  This one really tugs at my heart.

Disclaimer:  I haven't gone back to re-read all the threads on this topic and probably have missed one about the alerter.

it's easlier than what you think to sleep thru an alerter. i've worked with several co's that do it all the time. 

1 Wrote:
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> it's easlier than what you think to sleep thru an
> alerter. i've worked with several co's that do it
> all the time. 
snooze alarm
 

1 Wrote:
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> it's easlier than what you think to sleep thru an
> alerter. i've worked with several co's that do it
> all the time. 

Yes, I hear it happens but I've never seen it.  I wish I could sleep that soundly.

Back in the 1970's I worked with a guy at the firehouse who would on occasion sleep through the bells when a box (the old red fire alarm box on a telephone pole) was pulled.

why were the International Association of Sheet Metal, Air, involved in the investigation ??? ...

would there also have been an advance approach to the approach on the 2nd signal out from the absolute ??? ... 

i like NORAC's speed for an approach indication at 30mph ... 

RS11 Wrote:
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> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It will be interesting to see the results of
> blood
> > gas testing  on the crew of the eastbound
> > train.  It wouldn't surprise me in the
> slightest
> > if there was carbon monoxide in the cab.
> >  
>
> It baffles me that crew could not respond to the
> alerter.  Even asleep that will wake you up. 
> How can you go by several signals where some sort
> of action should be taken, then blow a red at 65
> MPH unless they were knocked out by something like
> you suggested.  This one really tugs at my
> heart.
>
> Disclaimer:  I haven't gone back to re-read all
> the threads on this topic and probably have missed
> one about the alerter.

besdies a helper crew working through tunnels has there even been a recorded case of such an event where a gased cab caused the asphyxiation of a train crew in an open environment ??? 

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
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> why were the International Association of Sheet
> Metal, Air, involved in the investigation ???

Uhh, the UTU is part of that group now. Been that way for years now.

> would there also have been an advance approach to
> the approach on the 2nd signal out from the
> absolute ??? ... 

Yes

> i like NORAC's speed for an approach indication at
> 30mph ... 

Same with GCOR.
 

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
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> why were the International Association of Sheet
> Metal, Air, involved in the investigation ???

SMART Union representing the the trainmen.

https://smart-union.org/

Milw_E70 Wrote:
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> Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > i like NORAC's speed for an approach indication
> at
> > 30mph ... 
>
> Same with GCOR.
>

i was wondering that with the prelim stating a yellow approach has a max speed of 40mph ... 

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
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> (snip)
>
> besdies a helper crew working through tunnels has
> there even been a recorded case of such an event
> where a gased cab caused the asphyxiation of a
> train crew in an open environment ??? 

Not that I know of, but the symptoms can include drowsiness, lack of situational awareness, etc.

I'd definitely want to rule it out as a possible cause, before blaming the crew members.

On the BNSF, an approach indication requires you reduce to 30 MPH, prepared to stop, and I would suspect that the signal before that was a flashing yellow (Approach Medium) which would basically require you to slow to 40 MPH

Santa Fe

Posted from iPhone

Do not want to start 30 posts on the subject, but could have PTC avoided this?  Just a simple yes or no or maybe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/16 13:24 by mundo.

yes

Out_Of_Service Wrote:

>
> besides a helper crew working through tunnels has
> there even been a recorded case of such an event
> where a gassed cab caused the asphyxiation of a
> train crew in an open environment ??? 

Yes, it's happened at least twice on the Union Pacific in Idaho many decades ago. The first case was in 1949 involving a collision between a stalled westbound steam powered freight holding the main to double a hill and an approaching eastbound F-unit powered freight -which was to clear at the west switch of the siding. The diesel powered freight plowed head on into the westbound steam engine at full speed. An investigation later determined F-units were prone to carbon monoxide gassing issues in the cab.
The second case was in 1951 at Orchard, ID where an eastbound F-unit powered freight collided at full speed with a waiting eastbound freight holding the main. Again, CO was suspected as being the cause.
On a side note, GE dash 9 equipment also has experienced a rare instance of cab gassing issues due to bad batteries.

Regards to blaming the crew...saying the crew was asleep for what ever reason does not "blame" them unless you insist to call it that.  There could be many good reasons for going to sleep.  CO, fatigue, drugs, out of cycle work/rest periods, noise levels, vibrations etc.  None of that implies blame be placed on the people.  But to the basics...it was either system fail or people fail and I am sure there are reasons for any fail.
Roger Beckett

up833 Wrote:
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> Regards to blaming the crew...saying the crew was
> asleep for what ever reason does not "blame" them
> unless you insist to call it that.  There could
> be many good reasons for going to sleep.  CO,
> fatigue, drugs, out of cycle work/rest periods,
> noise levels, vibrations etc.  None of that
> implies blame be placed on the people.  But to
> the basics...it was either system fail or people
> fail and I am sure there are reasons for any
> fail.
> Roger Beckett

Right. That's why I asked about tests to rule out this condition.

Posted from Android

What does a carbon monoxide detector cost at Ace Hdwr? Under $40?

How many CO detectors are in $2.5 million locomotives today? 0!

Safety First?

Posted from iPhone

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It will be interesting to see the results of blood
> gas testing  on the crew of the eastbound
> train.  It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest
> if there was carbon monoxide in the cab.
>  

What blood gas testing? Remains were piles of ashes.

pnger64 Wrote:
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> What blood gas testing? Remains were piles of
> ashes

with sensitivity high on this subject i don't think this poster meant any disrespect to the crew with his statement ... just staing a fact ... just trying to avoid the subject getting blown out of proportion ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/16 15:26 by Out_Of_Service.