Western Railroad Discussion > Yard speed limit sign question

What does the "k" represent...f is freight p is passenger and I guess the t is for the Talgos?

---

I will guess that the "K" designation is probably "Chemical" freight trains.
This seems the most common sense answer I can think of.
 ----Daniel

I believe K stands for "key" trains, those with TIH (toxic inhalation hazard) cars.
Interesting that their speed limit is higher than F. Most that I have noticed are are lower.

Luke

tehachap Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does the "k" represent...f is freight p is
> passenger and I guess the t is for the Talgos?

Per BNSF SSI, these speed signs are placed at the limits to designated Metropolitain areas to alert crews operating "K" trains (any train containing a specified amount of placarded hazmat cars) that the speed limit is limited 35 mph no matter the normal maximum authorized speed for the particular train.  Your assumption that "F" = Freight, "P" = Passenger, and "T" = Talgo is correct.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/16 16:49 by Ironbender.

I admit I don't know what "K" is for, but I doubt that chemical trains would have the same max. speed as passenger, and 5 mph faster than other freight!
Barry Draper

barrydraper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I admit I don't know what "K" is for, but I doubt
> that chemical trains would have the same max.
> speed as passenger, and 5 mph faster than other
> freight!
> Barry Draper


That's exactly what I was thinking.

Posted from iPhone

The reason Key Trains have a higher speed is to get them through High Urban Threat areas as quick as possible without stopping.

Posted from Android

I wish they would tell the railroad that....

RCPE_Hogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason Key Trains have a higher speed is to
> get them through High Urban Threat areas as quick
> as possible without stopping.
>
> Posted from Android

RCPE_Hogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason Key Trains have a higher speed is to
> get them through High Urban Threat areas as quick
> as possible without stopping.

If that was the case why limit their speed at all? Notice Ironbender used the word "limited". The K trains are _limited_ to 35 MPH unless there is a more restrictive speed for freight.

barrydraper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I admit I don't know what "K" is for, but I doubt
> that chemical trains would have the same max.
> speed as passenger, and 5 mph faster than other
> freight!

Unless there is a special instruction I haven't seen, this is a very poor implementation. I argued about the Talgo speeds. I wanted a special instruction that defined Talgo and Passenger. In any rules theory, all rules, all instructions, and all restrictions are in effect simultaneously unless specifically stated. It makes me retch to see
Do not exceed 30 mph unless a lower speed limit is in effect

NO!

If you have a 30 mph restriction and you have a 20 mph restriction you comply with both. Neither is superseded by the other. If you are not exceeding 20 mph, you are also not exceeding 30 mph. It's not rocket science.

BN folks said, no, the Talgo trains don't need to be defined in the timetable; everyone knows what a Talgo train is (and yes, I was working for them at the time). Well...a Talgo train is a passenger train, isn't it? The special instructions don't specify a difference. Everyone just assumes that the Talgo speeds only apply to Talgo trains and the passenger speeds apply only to conventional passenger trains.

Now, we have a similar situation. A Key train is a freight train. In this case, both signs apply to a Key train even though a Talgo train is a passenger trains and both signs do not apply to Talgo trains.

I'm so glad I don't work there any more.

It's funny. The day that BN hired me, they weren't hiring. The head of Telegrapher Control called me over to his desk as his assistant was dismissing me, saying You say on the application that you worked for Frank Bannister (SP Chief in Bakersfield). Fired?

Nope.

We're not hiring, but nobody who can work for Frank Bannister and not get fired is getting turned away. You're hired right now, on the spot.

I didn't get fired from SP because I was as careful, meticulous, and attentive to details as I am in the above. After thinking that way got me hired, folks spent the next 20 years looking for a reason to fire me because of it.

TAW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/16 18:00 by TAW.

Back in the4 day, the SP had white speed limit signs for all trains except the Daylights, which had an oval orange sign with a higher speed going east (south) out of Mojave, where they really hauled to Lancaster...

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> barrydraper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I admit I don't know what "K" is for, but I
> doubt
> > that chemical trains would have the same max.
> > speed as passenger, and 5 mph faster than other
> > freight!
>
> Unless there is a special instruction I haven't
> seen, this is a very poor implementation. I argued
> about the Talgo speeds. I wanted a special
> instruction that defined Talgo and Passenger. In
> any rules theory, all rules, all instructions, and
> all restrictions are in effect simultaneously
> unless specifically stated. It makes me retch to
> see
> Do not exceed 30 mph unless a lower speed limit is
> in effect
>
> NO!
>
> If you have a 30 mph restriction and you have a 20
> mph restriction you comply with both. Neither is
> superseded by the other. If you are not exceeding
> 20 mph, you are also not exceeding 30 mph. It's
> not rocket science.
>
> BN folks said, no, the Talgo trains don't need to
> be defined in the timetable; everyone knows what a
> Talgo train is (and yes, I was working for them at
> the time). Well...a Talgo train is a passenger
> train, isn't it? The special instructions don't
> specify a difference. Everyone just assumes that
> the Talgo speeds only apply to Talgo trains and
> the passenger speeds apply only to conventional
> passenger trains.

Seems plain as day to me

Its simple, That speed board is saying your restricted to 35mph through the high Urban threat area if you are a key train, that restriction could last for miles until you pass a speed board that says End K 35. If your train is a manifest train you will be required to also obey the F speed while in a K zone. The F speed through the K speed zone would only affect your train if it was lower than 35mph. So this speed board would be telling the crew that they are entering a 35mph key train speed zone and they are also entering a 30mph permanent speed restriction. Once the rear of their train clears the 30mph then they can run at a max speed of 35mph until they exit the key train speed zone. 

CS 

i'm an east coast guy but i'm going to venture to say that the speed sign is for the mainline ...and not the yard  ...

There are also other restrictions that might apply, further reducing a given train's max speed.

​Not enough brake axles per /ton   5 mph restriction
too short a train                             5 mph reduction (and sometimes a fixed max speed as well)
​car in consist restricted  to 20 MPH

So, in a way, K-35 is just another special condition - like the other special conditions...

1976 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > barrydraper Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I admit I don't know what "K" is for, but I
> > doubt
> > > that chemical trains would have the same max.
> > > speed as passenger, and 5 mph faster than
> other
> > > freight!
> >
> > Unless there is a special instruction I haven't
> > seen, this is a very poor implementation. I
> argued
> > about the Talgo speeds. I wanted a special
> > instruction that defined Talgo and Passenger.
> In
> > any rules theory, all rules, all instructions,
> and
> > all restrictions are in effect simultaneously
> > unless specifically stated. It makes me retch
> to
> > see
> > Do not exceed 30 mph unless a lower speed limit
> is
> > in effect
> >
> > NO!
> >
> > If you have a 30 mph restriction and you have a
> 20
> > mph restriction you comply with both. Neither
> is
> > superseded by the other. If you are not
> exceeding
> > 20 mph, you are also not exceeding 30 mph. It's
> > not rocket science.
> >
> > BN folks said, no, the Talgo trains don't need
> to
> > be defined in the timetable; everyone knows what
> a
> > Talgo train is (and yes, I was working for them
> at
> > the time). Well...a Talgo train is a passenger
> > train, isn't it? The special instructions don't
> > specify a difference. Everyone just assumes
> that
> > the Talgo speeds only apply to Talgo trains and
> > the passenger speeds apply only to conventional
> > passenger trains.
>
> Seems plain as day to me

Key trains carry freight. They are freight trains.  Key train restrictions apply. Freight restrictions also apply.

Talgo trains carry passengers. They are apparently not not passenger trains. Talgo Speeds apply to Talgo trains. Passenger train speeds apply to all passenger trains that are not Talgo trains.

I know what it means. That is not what the rules say. To me, it is a trap. Everybody Knows is not the right approach. Make it Right.

TAW

If I were on a key train, I would go the K speed. If I were on a non key train, I would go the F speed.

If I were on a Talgo train, I would go the T speed. If I were on another passenger train, I'd go the P speed.

This doesn't have to be complicated.

1976 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I were on a key train, I would go the K speed.
> If I were on a non key train, I would go the F
> speed.
>
> If I were on a Talgo train, I would go the T
> speed. If I were on another passenger train, I'd
> go the P speed.
>
> This doesn't have to be complicated.

Except in this case, you'd be fired....

1976 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I were on a key train, I would go the K speed.
> If I were on a non key train, I would go the F
> speed.
>
> If I were on a Talgo train, I would go the T
> speed. If I were on another passenger train, I'd
> go the P speed.
>
> This doesn't have to be complicated.

...but someone said that the special instruction says that both apply to a Key train (I haven't seen it). There is no special instruction saysing that Talgo trains are not passenger trains.

TAW

I completely agree with "TAW" - this is potentially a confusing issue.

"K-trains" are freight trains, no question, and I find it virtually impossible to believe they want a K-train to operate higher than normal freight train speed. As such the "K" speed should never have even been posted here at all since freight train speed is already below K-train speed. Now this would make sense to have the K-speed posted where freight train speed exceeds 35 mph as a reminder to crews on K-trains. You may disagree with me but I guarantee there are individuals who take that sign literally.