Western Railroad Discussion > BNSF Trains Stranding North Idaho Residents

I wrote the following for a non-railfan audience, but some of you may find it an interesting discussion;

http://www.krem.com/news/local/bonner-county/stopped-trains-frustrating-n-idaho-drivers/361616225

How many of you saw the story on KREM news tonight about people getting stranded by trains parked over their driveway crossings for hours on end. Like most things the news media reports on, they do a poor job. It's just that you don't see it unless they report on a industry or organization you happen to know a lot about...then you do a facepalm when you realize all the misinformation they put out.I have no doubt the railroad is blocking their crossings for hours on end, and I will go into the reason for that momentarily. But those property owners are partly to blame for not developing a alternate route off their property. There is a road just behind their property that goes to a crossing that is open about 99% of the time. While some have a ATV trail to it, none have developed an actual access road from that road behind their properties. The affected property owners could also get together and build a lateral road parallel to the tracks as a mutual access road leading to a crossing that is not often blocked. Their neighbors to the north does have a second access road out leading to a public crossing to the north. In all there are 5 private crossings between the two public crossings, and only one has that secondary escape route.I was almost cringing when the one guy said that there only used to be a train or two a week and now there are a whole lot. It's clearly not the case and awfully misleading to the uninformed viewer. There have always been a lot of trains on this route as it's one of 4 critical east-west railroad corridors across the western US. 40~50 trains a day has been typical, but starting last spring grain traffic surged this year. The upper plains had a fantastic wheat crop, clearly more than the elevators could handle, and they have been trying to ship the excess wheat as fast as they can to the west coast for export before the winter snows set in. train counts have been approaching 70 trains a day, with about half or more being unit grain trains. The bottle neck is the Hauser Yard Fueling facility. All but a few trains are fueled there, and the facility does not have enough capacity to handle all the extra traffic without delays. So trains are being parked for hours on end in either direction until space opens up at the fuel tracks. Imagine the gas lines of the 1970's....this is the railroad version.Now the crossings where those landowners live is not a place that normally sees trains parked for the fuel tracks. But for trains trying to weave their way past the other parked trains means that they must sit for long periods of time at "control points", places where trains can switch tracks. One of those control points is just south of those landowner private crossings. So often what happens is a westbound train will be sitting at "control point 223 (for milepost 22.3) waiting half an hour for an eastbound train that just is leaving Hauser Yard, because all the rest of the side tracks between CP223 and Hauser Yard are filled with westbounds waiting for a slot on the fuel tracks. Until this "grain rush" subsides a little, this will continue to be a issue. 

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/16 21:13 by funnelfan.

I too saw that train story on Channel 2. I laughed at the one or two trains a week knowing it was the Northern transcon, but it is a sticky situation.

Larry



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/16 09:39 by Ritzville.

And it's not just CP 223.  Boyer West stated one day this week she had trains sitting al the way to E. Algoma.

I'd be pissed too. I'm surprised nobody is pilling pins or turning angle cocks. I've known residents to do it.

Posted from Android

Good piece, nice balance.

FWIW I might have added a little more about how this comes from American farmers producing more grain, hiring more Americans, buying more Deere, CAT, etc gear

Posted from Android

What are the rules for blocking private crossings?

Posted from iPhone

howeld Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are the rules for blocking private crossings?
>
>

None.

TAW

20 mins on private crossings.

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> howeld Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What are the rules for blocking private
> crossings?
> >
> >
>
> None.
>
> TAW

Hmm seems odd. Wouldn't a private crossing be considered some type of easement?
Kind of apples and oranges in this case but the railroad couldn't block a private crossing forever (say car storage for example) without some recourse from the property owner if it is an easement. I have to give access to gas and electric company to service equipment on the rear of my property due to an easement.

Posted from iPhone

Some of the residents might want to tread cautiuosly on this issue.  While some private crossings have permanent easements from the railroad, many of them are contractual--lasting for some period of years, with renewal required to continue.  Private crossings have gone from being considered a "courtesy" extended to landowners by the railroad to being looked upon by the railroads as a potential liability that should be eliminated whenever possible.  An easy way to do that is simply for the railroad to refuse to renew the contract for use of a private crossing.  The legal considerations around each private crossing can be different, but, were I one of the residents in the area being discussed in this thread, I would be reading any documents concerning a private crossing that I could find before I would be stirring up a hornet's nest about it.

I used to do work in land title, and I've dealt with private crossing issues.  Quite often, real estate salespeople were totally ignorant to just plain unethical about disclosing to buyers what the status of a private crossing was that was the access to a property.   A lot of buyers got burned.  One case that I remember was particularly ugly.  A guy bought an acreage with a private crossing, then subdivided it into parcels just large enough to be exempt from any local planning or subdivision regualtions.  The place was in a beautiful spot, and the parcels sold quickly and people started building houses on several of them.  Imagine their horror when the railroad sent letters by certified mail to them stating that they had no legal right to use the private crossing--it could only be used by the original landowner to access his home--period.  The private crossing agreement with the original landowner and the railroad fully supported the railroad's position.  The topography of the area made it impossible to access the properties by other means. Since the "subdivision" was not legally required to follow the county's subdivison regulations, the landowner's had no regulatory recourse to use against the railroad to re-open the private crossing to their use.  After considerable litigation, the final result was that the landowners had to pay the railroad something on the order of $25K apiece to install a full public crossing with lights  at the crossing.  Though the landowners then negotiated with the county to dedicate the road into their "subdivision" as a county road, the county refused to participate in the cost of installing the public crossing, correctly and courageously stating that the county taxpayers should not have to pay for the ignorance and mistakes of a few landowners.  I moved away from the area, but, as I recall, there were still lawsuits flying around between the landowners, the "developer," and the real estate people involved.

Also, to answer a post above--many, if not most, private crossing agreements (which effectively create an easement) do not confer to the landowner unlimited crossing rights.  They may restrict who can use the crossing and under what conditions.  The agreement may also contain specific language that permits the railroad to block the crossing for reasons of "operational necessity."  In a legal sense, most private crossing agreements confer a restricted trespass right over the railroad right-of-way.   Take a look at most "Private Crossing" signs and you will see language to the effect of "No Trespassing.  Right to pass under the control of the owner"--the "owner" meaning the railroad. 

One final note:  I know for a fact that at least one Class I railroad with which I am familiar has been on an all-out crusade to close as many private crossings as possible, and has people employed with that specific task assigned to them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/16 06:51 by WW.

Has anyone in Spokane thought about using JOY/W.R.Stamler Railcar Mover to move entire grain trains in and out of the fueling pads?

They could move coupled two grain unit trains with complete safety from the car spotter control stand and refuel the head end locomotives, the Distributed Power Units and any Pusher Locomotives without the need for an engineer in the cab of any of the locomotives.

My thinking is the issue is simply time and the lack of it as I see it with moving 10,000-20,000 feet of railcars and locomotives quickly and having the ability to move a loaded grain train or a unti train of coal cars outbound as quickly as possible through a fueling pad saves both time and money.

I guess it would also depend on whether or not the yard master would want two fuel booms operating to fill each tank in half the time with two yard workers refueling the trains as they come in. The JOY/W.R. Stamler car spotter would certainly lend its flexibility to that where the yard workers would be in constant copmmunication with each other by radio as they are refueling the locomotives.

The use of locked/coupled fuel nozzles like the ones used in larger aircraft jet fuel tanks would also reduce spillage to a bare minimum as well but would require modifying the current fuel tank recievers and require venting and the OPW fuel boom fuel nozzle would have to be changed as well.

BUT its always a case of money and time.
 




 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/16 08:12 by leonz.

Private crossings are a very large liablity for the RR due to any accident and the resulting costs to the RR, Makes no diffrence that the person using the crossing had permission to do it or not. Few if any could afford what an accident involving derailed cars cost.

Also like was pointed out by the fellow there is other ways to get out of there.

BNSF is creating a very dangerous situation in North Idaho. These crossing are being blocked for large chunks of time, some up to two or three hours. Yes these people probably bought or built these houses long after NP, BN or BNSF was there but does that give BNSF the right to inconvenience these homeowners for large chunks of time. Most of this could be avoided if the dispatchers would talk to us crews and let us know the situation. We will gladly cut them if we know we are going to sit on them longer then 10 minutes. 

Just a few days ago I blocked the crossing in the story for several hours. Boyer West never should have parked us there but they had Z's in the picture and did not tell us. We kept asking to cut the crossing and she kept telling us we would move soon. When I finally did move the train I almost hit a car that was driving down the side of the ROW trying to get around us. Had that car been able to get across the tracks he never would have pulled that asinine stunt. That does not make it right but it shows you how fed up these people are getting.

Most of this is abecause of the mess BNSF has gotten itself into in the NW and Montana. Much of it is self inflicted. If they are so worried about crews dying on the law as they state in the story they need to plan better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/16 12:00 by Pacific5th.

leonz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone in Spokane thought about using
> JOY/W.R.Stamler Railcar Mover to move entire grain
> trains in and out of the fueling pads?
>
> They could move coupled two grain unit trains with
> complete safety from the car spotter control stand
> and refuel the head end locomotives, the
> Distributed Power Units and any Pusher Locomotives
> without the need for an engineer in the cab of any
> of the locomotives.
>
> My thinking is the issue is simply time and the
> lack of it as I see it with moving 10,000-20,000
> feet of railcars and locomotives quickly and
> having the ability to move a loaded grain train or
> a unti train of coal cars outbound as quickly as
> possible through a fueling pad saves both time and
> money.
>
> I guess it would also depend on whether or not the
> yard master would want two fuel booms operating to
> fill each tank in half the time with two yard
> workers refueling the trains as they come in. The
> JOY/W.R. Stamler car spotter would certainly lend
> its flexibility to that where the yard workers
> would be in constant copmmunication with each
> other by radio as they are refueling the
> locomotives.
>
> The use of locked/coupled fuel nozzles like the
> ones used in larger aircraft jet fuel tanks would
> also reduce spillage to a bare minimum as well but
> would require modifying the current fuel tank
> recievers and require venting and the OPW fuel
> boom fuel nozzle would have to be changed as
> well.
>
> BUT its always a case of money and time.
>  
>
>
The problem is not the lack of manpower but with the capacity of the fueling facility itself, and I'm sure the engineers would have something to say regarding such a move and it's legitimacy with respect to their working agreement with the Carrier.

I guess my thought was that they would simply pull up to the terminal and
simply let the car mover pull the unit trains through much more quickly 
without the engineers needing to worry about spoting the engines
numerous times as the car mover would move the consists without
engine power as the engines would be idling without brakes being applied
as the axle pushers would be restraining and stopping the consist no
matter the length as the unit train would be moved in two or three
complete stops assuming the sanding tower is next to the fuel pad
to service the lead locomotives then the Distributed Power Unit(s)and the 
pusher locomotive(s).

Shouldn't have abandoned the GN line from Spokane to Sandpoint.

leonz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess my thought was that they would simply pull
> up to the terminal and
> simply let the car mover pull the unit trains
> through much more quickly 
> without the engineers needing to worry about
> spoting the engines
> numerous times

*If* Hauser was a crew terminal, that would make sense, but iirc Hauser is not a crew change location. The Washington guys can confirm that, but I think it's part way through the run.

Darren Boes
Lethbridge, AB
Southern Alberta Railfan

A couple of things for the engineer and conductor to remember. Do not show any police officer your driver's license. Show them your engineer or conductor ID. You cannot lose your drivers' license over that.

Do not sign for a ticket that is the trainmaster's job. Get one to come to the scene and do that.

Hauser is indeed the crew change terminal. Hauser is miles west of the crossings in question. No car mover is going to move any train that far or even within the fueling facility limits. This is an absolutely silly idea.

Interfering with a train in interstate commerce is a federal offense with substantial fines and felony jail time. The FBI will conduct the investigation, TSA will likely get involved. So leave the pin lifters and angle cocks alone.

Record the times of the violation and report these to the county sheriff. Time, crossing number and locomotive number. Be prepared to have the railroad initiate action to close your crossing.

With Hauser being a complete service facility it would make sense to add a car mover system to speed refueling and
servicing of the unit trains or AMTRAK for that matter. after they see how efficient the first unit is they would add a second unit.


The Joy/Stamler car movers are driven hydraulically with axle pushers that raise and lower while cycling.
The axle pushers use electric eyes and raise up behind the last two axles of any size rail car and then push the
car forward or backward under the complete control of the operator

The axle pusher blocks have a diagonal top that allows them to slide under the axle as the car moves
forward or backward providing the operator complete control of the car or string of cars being moved from one
position to another and or back.

The axle pushers are connected to multiple hydraulic cylinders that are connected to a wire rope travel system that moves
the cars forward and backward with complete control and have been offered for sale in two models and have been
on the market for over 18 years. The car movers pusher blocks also lower completely to permit the train or trains to pass over
the system as needed.

The Stamler car movers would speed refueling and pushing the unit trains through much more quickly without disconnecting them from the unit train
where in the fuel pad ooperators would spot the trains quickly, refuel them, check the fluid levels add water or motor oil if needed and then
move them forward to be sanded, toilets and cabins cleaned, drain water from the air tanks, change air filters,  service the air conditioners,
restock the water bottles, check the fire extinguishers, and wash the locomotives during the non winter months much more quickly.  

The DPU and Pusher locomotives would also be serviced at a faster rate as well as the car mover operator would be able to move the train much more
quickly with the car mover rather than constantly communicating with the engineer and conductor relaying the trains actual position on the fuel pad and
saving many hours of work moving the trains over the fuel pad. No one would lose a job over this as the trains would move much more efficiently while
being serviced and then be ready to move out of the yard(s) more quickly.  
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/16 15:05 by leonz.