Western Railroad Discussion > Roseville yard is pretty full...

Both departure and receiving yards have trains, and the bowl looks to be pretty full. The Feather River Canyon (Canyon Sub) is washed out in many places so everything has to go over Donner.

I'll bet Omaha is taking a LONG HARD LOOK at restoring double track over The Hill (Donner). Putting the rails back over the original summit ROW is a non-starter for cost (rework the old tunnels to handle double stacks) and maintenance (SP had serious problems in winter with ice heaves that literally moved the rails off the mountain!), so that makes a second Summit Tunnel (Big Hole) worthy of budget consideration. Restoring the second track at Emigrant - Yuba Gap (7+ miles) is probably on the table right now.

EXCELLENT report djansson ,
HOW did the original CP Central Pacific mainline north of the Greatt Salt Lake perform with these big storms ???
I am wondering about the best  LONG-Term plans for the LUCIN  Causeway  (great salt lake).
I also wonder if the choice will be to EITHER Bore a 2nd Big Hole (Donner)  OR Repair the FRC and WInnemucca subs ???
I would just LOVE to see the detailed thoughts of legends like Jim "Bear" Mahon on this very fascinating and interesting matter.
JIm "Bear" Mahon spent his career on both Donner and the Lucin Causeway so he should have some good knowledge on this.

This would be Bear Mahons'  final --- big opportunity to guide us FAR into the future with a very SOLID and  Reliable coridor by answering the following question
What should the Grand LONG-TERM plan be and WHY for the Overland route from Sacramento to Ogden (Donner and Lucin area)  ????
We are living in VERY pivotal and historic times indeed ,in 2017.
----- Daniel
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Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/17 15:13 by daniel3197.

The #1 track was used and survived for over 100 years.  All the talk about its difficulty, while true, ignores the simple fact that is was used, daily, for over 100+ years.  No reason why it can't be used again.  That's way cheaper than drilling a new bore.

When I mentioned the other day that UP was getting a very good education about a real Caliornia winter, I was reminded that UP has been here for awhile now, and saw the '97 storms.  Well, yes--but the didn't have control of Donner Pass then, nor control of all the currently flooded lines.  Now they can feel the same impact that SP felt, and that's what I meant.  UP can't go north due to the Yuba River bridge being out, can't go south due to flooding and derailments, can't go east in the Feather River, which leaves the Coast Line and Altamont as their only safety valves.  Otherwise, they're stuck.

Donner Pass should be double-tracked again, because it's their most reliable mainline, but it's hampered right now by a previous (bad) decision to single track portions of it.  Make it fluid again.  Spend the money to keep things flowing.  

coach Wrote:
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> The #1 track was used and survived for over 100
> years.  All the talk about its difficulty, while
> true, ignores the simple fact that is was used,
> daily, for over 100+ years.  No reason why it
> can't be used again.  That's way cheaper than
> drilling a new bore.
>
> When I mentioned the other day that UP was getting
> a very good education about a real Caliornia
> winter, I was reminded that UP has been here for
> awhile now, and saw the '97 storms.  Well,
> yes--but the didn't have control of Donner Pass
> then, nor control of all the currently flooded
> lines.  Now they can feel the same impact that SP
> felt, and that's what I meant.  UP can't go north
> due to the Yuba River bridge being out, can't go
> south due to flooding and derailments, can't go
> east in the Feather River, which leaves the Coast
> Line and Altamont as their only safety valves.
>  Otherwise, they're stuck.
>
> Donner Pass should be double-tracked again,
> because it's their most reliable mainline, but
> it's hampered right now by a previous (bad)
> decision to single track portions of it.  Make it
> fluid again.  Spend the money to keep things
> flowing.  

-North is stil open, just having to use the Sac Sub to the Valley. A little time consuming, but keeping up with traffic needs.

BNSF could save several hours from Sac to KF by running up the UP and it's not like that line is saturated with
traffic on a normal basis. As I said, someone needs to talk to Redd and George see if they're going to keep Quincy
running, that's about the largest rail shipper in the Portola/Quincy/Westwood triangle.

Out

railroads have short memories ... as soon as everything goes back to normal they forget about the need for additional capacity ...

UP has gotten burned several times in the last 30 years or so by selling or abandoning trackage that they wound up sorely needing later.  Double tracking doesn't really insure redundancy in routes.  There is always a good chance on a double track route that a natural disaster could take out both tracks.  Particularly in mountain railroading, having secondary routes available is just a good insurance policy.  UP should repair FRC if for no other reason than keeping redundancy in routes along their Central Corridor.  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/17 18:48 by WW.

Copy19 Wrote:
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> The Board of Directors might pause to take stock
> of the future of the railroad industry.  Donner
>  Pass seems to be the best option.  How about
> abandoning the former WP from Winnemucca west to
> Binney jct. Ca.?  Transfer BNSF trackage rights
> to Donner and the former Shasta route.  Abandon
> the Feather River Canyon and the Inside Gateway.
>  Put our money into making the remaining lines
> into super railroads!
>
> JBOmaha
>

Sounds interesting John, but do you think they will be smart enough?

Posted from iPhone

Copy19 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
  Transfer BNSF trackage rights
> to Donner and the former Shasta route.  Abandon
> the Feather River Canyon and the Inside Gateway.
>  Put our money into making the remaining lines
> into super railroads!
>
> JBOmaha


...And then when those lines get closed by derailments, slides, etc, we can all post earnestly about how they "never should have abandoned the FRC"...   :) :) :)


 

How badly damaged was the UP's Feather River Canyon right of way
during the mid-1996 to the mid-1997 1997 storms?  Was it closed for
a long time?  If so, for how long?

TIA for any info!

I am just trying to learn how the damage done to the UP's FRC
RoW during this mid-2016 to mid-2017 storms so far compares
to the damnage done to the UP's FRC RoW during the mid-1996 
to mid-1997 storms.

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> railroads have short memories ... as soon as
> everything goes back to normal they forget about
> the need for additional capacity ...

And how many times has that bit them in the butt!

Posted from Android

IMHO, double tracking Donner isn't going to happen. There is not enough traffic over the route to justify the cost. The FRC will be repaired and back up and running. This is 30 year winter as far as rain goes and yes all this costing money, lots of it. Is it costing enough money to make a long term investment on something like double tracking donner when the 2nd mainline is not needed under normal conditions? My guess is no considering what the price tag per mile of track is these days with CTC, PTC etc etc. Trains are moving over other lines, way out of route yes, but trains are moving. The LASL and sunset route are being utilized for certain trains until things get repaired. I don't know how many miles of 2nd mainline would have to be added but if its just 5 miles it would cost a cool 5 million dollars. With CTC its my understanding its about 1 million dollars per mile and that figure comes from reliable sources that I know. The fact of the matter is the track over donner was removed mistake or not; when it gone its gone. It would cost a huge sum of money to put it back in. If was cheap to put it back in UP would have done it already.

CS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/17 21:33 by CaliforniaSteam.

Part of the original UP-SP merger plan was to restore the double track over Donner. If I remember correctly it had been estimated to cost $18 million.  Time went by but it didn't happen.  Of course the service crisis following the merger diverted everyone's attention.

JBOmaha



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/17 06:51 by Copy19.

UP has been keeping things status quo. When the gravely coal money dried up, they tightened their purse strings even more.

As side note example, they were taking ABS double track and converting a good section to CTC and installing crossovers.

Did dirtwork, installed underground signal and power lines, new signals, etc.

Coal market fell, and one day everything just stopped and everyone disappeared - just like that.

It stayed unfinished for inthink three years.

You'd think like most places, you have a project with a budget and allocated funds.

UP doesn't operate that way.

Although they are making money still, reinvestment into the railroad isn't as great as it use to be.

One of their new plans is to have more senior field managers in yards, reduce the amount of junior managers at yards - but to make those junior guys into mid level ones and have them work the yard and road.

So now all these entry level guys who don't know what they are doing will now be paid at the 3rd level pay band.

Bear would say "not my problem, I'm on pension with JLY"

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bear would say "not my problem, I'm on pension
> with JLY"

The "Bear" was the Division Engineer on the Sacramento Division when Anchutes and Moyer pulled up the double track from Switch 9 to Shed 10 and from Norden to Shed 47.
I also  can't  recall in my over 25 years maintaining the track on Donner including the No.1 track of ice heaving any of it off the mountain. In the spring thaw the old timber snow sheds would allow melt water would get in the track and cause ice heave which would require shims to keep the track level and the super elevation constant but traffic was not effected.
The No.1 track was Mr.DJR's track and he Concrete Sheds were installed by his personal direction. 

MW810 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> UP has been keeping things status quo. When the gravely coal money dried up, they tightened their
> purse strings even more.

That is for sure. Even in areas where coal was not a big player even before the market tanked, worked stopped or was drastically reduced on capital improvement projects.

> As side note example, they were taking ABS double track and converting a good section to CTC and installing crossovers.
>
> Did dirtwork, installed underground signal and power lines, new signals, etc.
>
> Coal market fell, and one day everything just stopped and everyone disappeared - just like that.
>
> It stayed unfinished for inthink three years.
>
> You'd think like most places, you have a project with a budget and allocated funds.

​Another one dead on. The crews were just told the projects were stopping right where they were and they walked away. Everything was left waiting to be completed. Several years later, a lot of them are still just sitting there waiting to be completed.

> One of their new plans is to have more senior field managers in yards, reduce the amount of
> junior managers at yards - but to make those junior guys into mid level ones and have them work
> the yard and road.
>
> So now all these entry level guys who don't know what they are doing will now be paid at the 3rd
> level pay band.

​What do they think this is going to accomplish? MYOs and MTOs don't move trains, engineers and conductors do. We need more TE&Y bodies.

​Of course as all this has gone along, the dividends and share repurchases have both increased. Gotta keep the share holders happy I guess.

I am sure they are looking at many different options. Could they use the Western Pacific for eastbound trains and Southern Pacific for westbound trains? I know not all trains but in general?

Posted from Android



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/17 23:06 by badtanker1987.

UP did have control of the Roseville Sub [Donner route] in 1997, as that was post-acquisition. altho none of the clearance improvements now in place were completed. All the "WP" trains were re-routed over "SP", as the Canyon Sub was out for several months. I helped out at Sparks for a while then.

The advantage of the Canyon Sub is its 1% grade. The disadvantages become apparent every 30 [or 10??] years. And the sidings are 'short' -- longest is 9810 [Virgilia], but most are 6000-7000 feet. 

And this is the second "30-year winter" in 10 years.