Western Railroad Discussion > Dead battery - how do you jump a locomotive?

If the batteries are dead, is it possible to jump start a locomotive? Is it just a matter of a jumbo sized set of cables?

I've also heard that some locomotives have an air starter - what if there is no air in the tank? Charge the air line from another locomotive?

Just like your car but like you said with big jumper cables(between engines 20 ft cables with heavy duty wire). Ive done it many times with switch engines and has worked everytime. Just be very careful it will knock you into next week if you get zapped. I have also see people do it with portable welders. They must provide enough juice to crack the engine.

Yes, a long set of very heavy duty jumper cables will do the trick. Some locomotives have jumper connectors on the pilots which make that much easier. Otherwise, a long set of cables from one locomotive battery knife switch to the other. Batteries can be charged using an electric welder if in a shop setting or on the road when no other locomotive is available.

And yes, if a dead locomotive with an air starter has no air, another locomotive can be used to charge the air system.


Chris Toth

McCloud Railway has regularly used their arc welder to wake their locomotives up when they lack the juice to do it themselves. I've seen this happen on at least a couple occassions.

JDLX
Elko, NV
http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails

Thanks gang. I thought that it was doable. And no, I'm not gonna go into Anaheim and swipe the switch engine. I had never thought of an arc welder. Something like 74 volts or so?

BTW, in the Air Force we have a way to 'jump start' the C-130. If there is enough runway, and at least some engines are turning, the aircraft does a high speed taxi while manipulating the prop feather.

If no engines running, and if you have two a/c on the ground, and if they are facing the right way, the dead a/c is positioned behind the live a/c. The good a/c exhaust and airflow is directed onto the props of the dead C-130, while manipulating the props. Eventualy the dead prop starts to spin and you may be able to get enough RPM to light the engine off. It is officialy known as an "air start" but there are other terms . . .

So how many volts it the starting system?

Scott

Just don't try to jump start your car off of a locomotive...I've heard disasterous
results can happen ;^)

Many ALCos and MLWs were built with Air Starters. Air from the brake system was used to spin the engine. BUGGER LOUD things. Many an alco uninitiated has been scared whitless by an Air Starter. to "jump" an ALCo or MLW loco with an Airstarter, connect it to any locomotive(s) able to charge the brake line. Ive heard this done with shop air, or yard air for parked cars.

Lovomotives have 64 volt batteries, the charging voltage is about 74 volt.

The jumpstaring with an arch welder can only be done of course with DC arc welders and only the older types. newer welders are usualy limited to a much lower voltage.

I never saw it done, but I was told that the EMD units that used the generator to start them, could be push started. One would have to push in some contactors with a flag stick. This sounds too dangerous to me, for one to do.

Just armchair contemplation but I'm guessing that while the current requirements are large they aren't as large as one might think. First of all the voltage is 5.3 times as much. Secondly, the engine, huge as it is compared to an automotive engine, doesn't really have to be cranked that fast to start. Here is an example of an EMD 16 cylinder 645E. Note the twin starter motors. Large compared to what's on your car but not really all that huge and I figure the current draw ought to be somewhat proportional to the size of the motor. Times two.

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filmteknik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just armchair contemplation but I'm guessing that
> while the current requirements are large they
> aren't as large as one might think. First of all
> the voltage is 5.3 times as much. Secondly, the
> engine, huge as it is compared to an automotive
> engine, doesn't really have to be cranked that
> fast to start. Here is an example of an EMD 16
> cylinder 645E. Note the twin starter motors.
> Large compared to what's on your car but not
> really all that huge and I figure the current draw
> ought to be somewhat proportional to the size of
> the motor. Times two.

I'm not certain the actual cranking amperage, but you can bet it's high. It was Charles Kettering of course who realized you could take a tiny electric motor, and have it turn a large engine. The motor is hopelessly overloaded when it does this, but since it only has to run a few seconds it survives for many cranking cycles. No doubt you've overcranked a stubborn car engine only to have the starter overheat and quit. This because they really are running far above their nominal capacity. Locomotive starters can do it too. And near as I can tell a big diesel normally only requires about 50 to 80 rpm to fire and start.

From some automotive web page:

"A good starter should normally draw a current of 60 to 150 amps, depending on the size or power rating of the starter. Some "high torque" GM starters may draw up to 250 amps."

Referring to EMD info: The twin starters are usually connected in series and are fused for 400A. In some cases they are connected in parallel and are fused for 800A. That's some serious current of course but only a small multiple of what you have on a car. Far less than the size / weight proportion would lead you to believe as the loco engine must be, what, 20 times or more?

Having been in the Air Force, I would bet that "other terms" means something that Todd won't let you post on TO!

Like JLDX said, we used an arc welder to crank our cranky Alco at Proler Steel in 1969. The welder batteries were usually dead too. So, there was enough juice in the loco's batteries to motorize the arc welder generator. Once it fired off, then we could crank the Alco. It's one of those morning rituals one never forgets. Especially standing in Houston's morning fog and hoping the diesel fog didn't ingite when the welder engine finally hit.

RailNet802, out

chuchubobnv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Having been in the Air Force, I would bet that
> "other terms" means something that Todd won't let
> you post on TO!

I was also in the Air Force, and the way most modern fighter jets start is pretty cool. On the F-15, there is a small engine call a JFS (Jet Fuel Starter). It was cranked from air bottles, you had 2 tries to get it started. Once the JFS was started it was turning the main gear box and you could then try to start the main engines. If the JFS didn't start with one of it's 2 chances, then the Crew Chief had to get out a breaker bar and start pumping. They would pump up one of the bottles and hope it was enough.

On another note, I am guessing that some of these newer locomotive designs that are going to have a smaller engine to warm the coolant will also be able to start the engine, or at least keep the batteries charged. Should make like easier.

Craig

GE AC4400CW's won't crank if the
batteries get to low, and as the
batteries get older, they start to
lose their charge.

Hence, if a GE shuts down for fuel
conservation purposes ("smartstart")
,sometimes it will not restart and
the big jumper cables are needed.

A real pain in the butt. However,
because of the danger of getting
seriously zapped, only shop staff
or qualified supervisors are allowed
to jump a locomotive.

My father was a construction superintendent for several nuclear power plants. The one that I got a complete tour of had 2 V20-645 EMD engines for backup power. They took no chances of the engines not starting. The engines were always kept at operating temperature with recirculating water. They had air starters that would roll the engines to full RPM in 4 seconds and the engines would be on line at full power in 7 seconds.

I had a similar experience with 2 F-M inline 12 cylinder opposing piston 4250 hp engines. They had a crankshaft on the top and bottom of the engine which stood about 12 feet high. There were two 150? gallon air tanks stacked horizontally at one end of the engine room that provided the starting air. when they were about to start, a little oil pump would turn on to prime the main oil pump and to prelube other components. then, HISS, GROWL, POP, SUPER GROWL and the ventilating fan would start right under your feet and almost blow you off the grate. they recommended that you wear ear plugs AND ear muffs while observing a running engine. IIRC, they started in 3.5 sec to 900 rpm and loaded to 3.5 MW 5 sec later!!! you thought, "wow these are pretty loud", then after they loaded you thought, "holy crap its so loud my body is shaking." sorry a little off subject, but sdrake's story brought back some interesting memories.

dave.

I jump started EMD GP35's and 40's many times on the Chino Local. Had my own 400 amp 20 foot cables. Hardest part was to separate the units and park them at a switch so the engineer's cab windows were close together. That way you could reach both knife switches with the cables.