Steam & Excursion > 261 Naked in the shop

Just got my latest issue of Trains mag, and it says 261 sits disassembled at the Harrison shop in Minneapolis. Work on 261`s overhaul is stalled as negotiations continue between the Friends of 261 and the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay. The contract extends through 2011, but the Friends wants an extension. Some one please help me out and tell me if this true. The 261 group are first class all the way, I hope they get things worked out...

It is completely true. And so far as I know, there really aren't any ongoing negotiations with the Green Bay folks. They've staked out a position that would be completely, financially untenable for the 261 folks. There wouldn't be much point in spending more than $500k on an overhaul for a locomotive you can only keep for another 2 years. Nor would there be much sense in doing so in the hope that at some future date the museum might change its position.

So, as I understand it, the money stays in the bank, and the mostly likely outcome, from what I've heard is that the locomotive will be towed back to the museum, dead sometime in the next couple of years. When I asked Sandberg about the locomotive's status a couple of weeks ago, he said "Call the folks at the museum, it's all up to them now."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/09 13:44 by steaminfo.

Wolfman Wrote:
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>The 261 group are first
> class all the way, I hope they get things worked
> out...

The 261 group is an outstanding organization in the rail preservation and operation industry; but their abilities and successes aren't limited to one locomotive. The Friends of the 261 could become the friends of any locomotive if they choose; but one thing to keep in mind: this is a tough business that can strain and age its most dedicated constituents more than most professions or vocations and not everyone wants to operate a locomotive that isn't legally theirs forever.

Whatever develops I want to take this opportunity to say a very public thank you to Steve Sandberg, his family and his entire organization for a job extremely well done!! without question they've been THE stellar outfit in this ever more difficult world of mainline steam,and we all owe them a huge debt of gratitude!!

Having witnessed Steve's determination and talents over the years I'm confident that should the museum at Green Bay be stupid enough to continue being unreasonable that he'll find another horse to ride and care for!!!

Sometimes our blessings come well disguised!!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Maybe we should all write to Mr Michael Telzrow at the National Railroad Museum.

Sad to see this happening.

DMIR230

What Ross said. Steve, his family, and his crew of volunteers have done a wonderful job with 261 over the 15 years of operation, not to mention the rebuilding. If the Green Bay troops are so stubborn, he should return the 261 in its present shape to them. I'm sure Steve will find another steed, heck, look at the deal he has with Doyle, operating the 4449 on fall excursions. I think the Green Bay folks are trying to fool with the wrong guy.

Are the people in Green Bay daft? What do they think...that it will be overhauled and given back to them to run?

As replacement I nominate MILW #265 from IRM, sister to 261. Tooling, boiler tubes or any other parts purchased for 261 will fit. I don't know its condition but it's been indoors for many years and I think an odd part or two may actually be on 261.

the rumor at an open house on saturday at avalon railcar inc. in west allis, wisconsin, is that NRM in green bay, wi is getting rid of equipment (engines, cabooses, etc.). if this is the case, why not let steve sandberg and the fo 261 organization keep the locomotive in the twin cities, and keep donations coming in from members, etc. to keep up maintenance, etc.

Boy if I hit the lottery and the title to one Frisco 1522, I would put the 261 group in charge, I hope we have`nt heard the end to this story yet, Until then I will keep on buying lotto tickets... Jeff..

bxa1 Wrote:
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> the rumor at an open house on saturday at avalon
> railcar inc. in west allis, wisconsin, is that NRM
> in green bay, wi is getting rid of equipment
> (engines, cabooses, etc.). if this is the case,
> why not let steve sandberg and the fo 261
> organization keep the locomotive in the twin
> cities, and keep donations coming in from members,
> etc. to keep up maintenance, etc.


If I remember correctly Steve said their initial position was something like "We'll sell you the locomotive for $1.7 million."

I've enjoyed watching, chasing and even riding #216 and I'll echo Ross's statement
word for word yet at the same time have to wonder why the rebuild was even started
if the renewal on the lease was still up in the air?

I'd suggest the museum reconsider lest the engine loose it's friends. Maybe part
of the renewal could involve visits to the museum or something that would contribute
to the viability of the museum in exchange for a much longer and /or permanent lease.

/Mitch

I'm sure Steve will find another steed, heck, look at the deal he has with Doyle, operating the 4449 on fall excursions.

I shudder to think that maybe the same could happen to SP-4449 because the city of Portland owns the locomotive. Always a few politicians who could say "Hey, give us a portion of your donations/trip receipts; city coffers need some more dollars. Or else we take back the locomotive."

The Friends of SP 4449 donated over 20K in services and materials to the ORHF's Holiday Express last year alone. This does not include volunteer man hours. The 4449 crew gives generously to the city via the ORHF and other venues. The Portland Parks Dept recognizes this contribution.

petitions need to be sent to the national railroad museum in green bay, wi to extend the lease for the milw 261. don't let history DIE. Support!!!!!

The simple question is:

What is best for the locomotive?

We obviously know that the answer is for it to stay in MN with the Friends of 261.

Actually, that's debatable from a number of viewpoints. A museum acts to preserve a historic artifact in whatever preemptive ways it can; the organizations that operate and maintain steam locomotives actually degrade the locomotives over time as a natural byproduct of operating them -- but the flip side is that these aren't just artifacts like a rotary telephone or Coke can from the 40s; they're machines meant for a purpose, and their story and meaningfulness can only be told completely by having them operate as intended. Of course, it's obvious who the venerable caretakers are in this arrangement.

The museum could cry "it belongs in a museum" and there aren't many sentimental arguments to the contrary that will alter that document in a court of law. If it's in the contract and there's an unwillingness to renegotiate to terms that suit the operator, the owner, and the locomotive, then there are plenty of other 'choos in the sea. The child's foster parents in this case, as suitable as they may be, may have to seek new kin.

We are well aware of the "original fabric" debate. One only has to look at a picture of the 261 when it left Green Bay and later of it restored and operating and ask "who is best for the locomotive"? The 261 was not a locomotive like the 1401 at the Smithsonian or the Allegheny at Dearborn, it was a glorified park engine that sat outside unprotected for decades while under the ownership of the GB museum.

There are those who say "I'm best because I can..". The Friends of 261 have proven "we're best because we have done..".

But at the end of the day GB does own it. Sad.

nathansixchime Wrote:
>
> The museum could cry "it belongs in a museum" and
> there aren't many sentimental arguments to the
> contrary that will alter that document in a court
> of law.

To paraphrase CCR, "It belongs in a museum, but you can have it for $1.7 million.";)

Having ridden and photographed the 261 several times in PA, WI and MN, I've seen the public come out in droves just to see the engine. I can't help but think that everyone (not just the railfans) will be a little worse off for that engine not running.

Dave Crosby

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've enjoyed watching, chasing and even riding
> #216 and I'll echo Ross's statement
> word for word yet at the same time have to wonder
> why the rebuild was even started
> if the renewal on the lease was still up in the
> air?
>
> I'd suggest the museum reconsider lest the engine
> loose it's friends. Maybe part
> of the renewal could involve visits to the museum
> or something that would contribute
> to the viability of the museum in exchange for a
> much longer and /or permanent lease.
>
> /Mitch

For the most part, the only work that has been done is that which doesn't cost money, other than things like torch gas, grinding wheels, etc. Basically, the boiler has been gutted for the inspection.
It wouldn't take long to slap some jacketing back on it and send it Railway Express back to Green Bay.
I would advise people to not badmouth the museum. It is an excellent museum and was a good home for 261 for around 40 years. Today, it earns them money in lease payments that helps the museum cover its costs. The B.O.D. I'm sure, is only doing that which it feels is best for the museum. That they are literally trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip just hasn't occurred to them yet.

I sould suggest that anyone in the area should visit the N.R.M. and give a donation. Support the museum. But at the same time, let your thoughts on 261 be known.
Let them know that they could well be killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Mark D.

Mark D.