Steam & Excursion > B&LE 643's future

Seems the building that the 643 was in is no more. There is a photo on Railpictures by Brad Morocco, sorry I can't post the link to the photo.

I really wish this engine would find a good home.

DMIR230

Why can't you post a link?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=316963&nseq=0

Where or where is 643 going to go?

Not sure, I got a pop up that said I couldn't post links.

Thanks for posting.

DMIR230

I though I saw something about the status of this engine not long ago as to where it was going.

Here's some B&LE #643 discussion from the archives;

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,1119364

/Mitch

Question for the experts:

According to steamlocomotive.com, this thing's axle loading is just a shade under 76,000 pounds. Based on the info I can find, an ES44AC's axle loading in 72,000 (the same as an N&W A). I realize 4,000 pounds/axle is kind of a lot, but it's not *that* much. I'd presume then that the primary barrier to something like this getting on the road is it's rigid five axle wheelbase and general engine and tender length and not so much weight. Is this correct?

Would there be anybody out there who could start a fund drive so that all of us could pitch in money to move this loco?
If the Brits can build a new steam loco out of beer money, I would think we Americans could as least save this machine.

nw1218 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question for the experts:
>
> According to steamlocomotive.com, this thing's
> axle loading is just a shade under 76,000 pounds.
> Based on the info I can find, an ES44AC's axle
> loading in 72,000 (the same as an N&W A). I
> realize 4,000 pounds/axle is kind of a lot, but
> it's not *that* much. I'd presume then that the
> primary barrier to something like this getting on
> the road is it's rigid five axle wheelbase and
> general engine and tender length and not so much
> weight. Is this correct?

That's the assumption from the previous thread, though
there's a question regarding one of the drivers being
not only blind (no flange) but also stated to be wider
which could cause issues with self-guiding switch frogs.

Then again, it was stated on another forum that self-
guided frogs have been around since the 20's. Still,
it can't be a good thing to lift the engine over such
a guide that is elevated above the railhead.

Cross posting from RYPN, it appears a Model Raiload
Museum in Ohio has it's hopes set on getting the
engine and running it on a 2 mile loop.

http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2009/09/23/news/nh1442782.txt

/Mitch

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> That's the assumption from the previous thread,
> though
> there's a question regarding one of the drivers
> being
> not only blind (no flange) but also stated to be
> wider
> which could cause issues with self-guiding switch
> frogs.
>
> Then again, it was stated on another forum that
> self-
> guided frogs have been around since the 20's.
> Still,
> it can't be a good thing to lift the engine over
> such
> a guide that is elevated above the railhead.
>
> Cross posting from RYPN, it appears a Model
> Raiload
> Museum in Ohio has it's hopes set on getting the
> engine and running it on a 2 mile loop.
>
> http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2009/09/23/new
> s/nh1442782.txt
>
> /Mitch

Thanks for the info! I tell ya, good luck to 'em, but the thought of a 2-10-4 on a 2 mile loop makes me think of an African Elephant in a petting zoo.

nw1218 Wrote:
> Thanks for the info! I tell ya, good luck to 'em,
> but the thought of a 2-10-4 on a 2 mile loop makes
> me think of an African Elephant in a petting zoo.

Funny, over on RYPN I said the same thing except
instead of elephant, I said tiger.

I'm waiting for someone to say I have no right to
comment unless I buy the engine myself. Still, I
think the best "deal" for all involved would be to
see 643 go to Jerry where it could be seen by many
and stand a good chance to run and maybe Jerry (or
similar in a Steamtown scenario) would perhaps
offer to the Railroad Museum a smaller and more
suitable engine for which they would be able to
more easily raise funds for.

/Mitch

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm waiting for someone to say I have no right to
> comment unless I buy the engine myself. Still, I
> think the best "deal" for all involved would be to
> see 643 go to Jerry where it could be seen by many
> and stand a good chance to run and maybe Jerry (or
> similar in a Steamtown scenario) would perhaps
> offer to the Railroad Museum a smaller and more
> suitable engine for which they would be able to
> more easily raise funds for.

Here's where I am confused. How will it be "seen by many" if it goes to Jerry Jacobsen and his private roundhouse?

- Chris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/10 16:48 by cblaz.

cblaz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's where I am confused. How will it be "seen
> by many" if it goes to Jerry Jacobsen and his
> private roundhouse?
>
> - Chris

Read the last line from the The Age of Steam Roundhouse
mission statement.

Wishing to share with others his passion for the steam
locomotive, Jerry Joe Jacobson has established the Age
of Steam Roundhouse.

The Roundhouse will seek to:

Preserve the steam locomotives, historic diesels, passenger cars and other railroad relics in the collection of Jerry Joe Jacobson

Construct a full-scale, operating and realistic roundhouse and back shop to overhaul, repair and maintain Jerry’s rolling stock

Fire-up and operate the steam locomotives on non-passenger carrying freight trains

Display and interpret this railroad heritage for the edification, enlightenment and entertainment of future generations of Americans.


/Mitch

The issue with the 643 is the WEIGHT, not the five-coupled drivers.

76,000 pound axle loadings are very high. To put that in context, a 4-axle, 286,000 pound freight car has axle loadings of only 71,500 pounds. However, the real issue with a steam locomotive is that the weight is concentrated in a relatively short wheelbase.

When full of fuel, the 765 weighs 808,000 pounds and has axle loadings in the 65,000 pound area. That's about the same weight as a pair of SD40-2's. However, on the 765 that weight is concentrated in a wheelbase of just over 89 feet. The wheelbase of a pair of SD40's is closer to 135 feet. It is the heavy weight in a short wheelbase that poses problems for the bridge engineers. The "bending moment" on any given bridge will be higher for the 765 than a pair of SD40's because of the shorter wheelbase. And it would be MUCH higher for the 643.

She would make a fine exhibit at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Baldwin-built and it was owned by a Pennsylvania rail company.

Thanks for explaining that Rich! I hope the old 643 finds a good home someday.

Al Seever
Minneapolis, MN

While the weight on the drivers of a steam locomotive may be roughly equivalent to that of a diesel, the situation changes dramatically when a steam locomotive begins to move.

To deal with the reciprocating forces of the piston and main rod, the drivers carry weight in addition to the weight that balances the rotating parts. The wheels are deliberately out of balance. The term is "dynamic augment".

As reported in the book "The Mighty 800" by R.E. Prince, on the well designed first series of the U.P. 800s the main driver is 10,500 pounds out of balance at diameter speed - 77 mph for 77 inch drivers - 336 rpm.

In his book "New Haven Power" J.W. Swanberg notes that the New Haven Hudsons were designed with what turned out to be faulty recommendations. If they slipped at over 81 mph, the drivers would lift off the rail and kink the rail when they came back down. The immediate concern was for the track, but that much force would certainly cause wear and tear on the locomotive.

The book "Atlantic Coast Line" by Richard E. Prince gives a similar story of the their Northerns.

With the B&LE 643 being a freight locomotive with a diameter speed of 64 mph for 64 inch drivers - 336 rpm, the same forces would be coming into play at a lower speed than on a passenger engine.

"The Steam Locomotive" by Ralph P. Johnson, reprinted by Simmons Boardman has a complete chapter on counterbalancing steam locomotive drivers.

Eugene Crowner

Dynamic Augment is not a significant factor at 10 mph. Any bridge engineer who is concerned about a bridge is going to restrict the speed of the engine to 10 mph or even less.

Some additional photos of 643

http://s809.photobucket.com/albums/zz14/tjb1293/643%20visit%203-12-10/