Steam & Excursion > What's up with the U.P. 844???

The GPS has the train on the move south of Mount Pleasant.

Is the GPS on the engine or engine support car, or on another car on the train? If the latter, could it be that the engine is still in Mt. Pleasant and the remainder of the cars are behind a diesel separate from the engine?

The GPS previously has been mounted in the Art Lockman, tool car. Thus, the tool car ALWAYS accompanies either of the steam locomotives.

I regards to the SD70ACe still loading... I have noticed that those POS will stay revved up real high when you are notching down or even in idle, therefore giving the impression there still doing something.
Kevin

typebangin Wrote:
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> If there are indeed flat spots on the drivers, how
> would grinding do much to fix the problem?
> Wouldn't the drivers need to be dropped and the
> tires re-profiled with a lathe or possibly even
> replaced?

In extreme cases, if a car has been dragged with sliding wheels for while, there will be a build up of hard, springy slag shoved ahead of the wheel. I've seen these build up so thick they were as high as the flange, and when the wheel finally was able to roll, the slag buildup would not even clear the brake shoe, and it would start sliding again. The car department came out, and cut the slag off with a torch, and dressed up the edges of the flat spot with a grinder, and the car was able to make it to a set out track. I've seen others even worse that to be re-wheeled right on the main line. It's called "built-up tread". A torch or grinder is the only thing that will remove it. I doubt 844 had anything like that.

Would a Lidgderwood device do an accurate
enough job, or would it take so much metal
off the tires that they would have to be
replaced much earlier than expected?

Certainly the intent would be to take off the same metal as you would with a lathe, that is, just enough to bring the rest of the tire down to the level of the middle of the flat spot. If the flat spot is indeed really flat, it's a chord cutting across a circle and the point of maximum deviation from that circle would be in the middle of it. That should still hold true even if the flat spot is not exactly flat but more of a flattening but still somewhat curved. So since you can't build it back up you're going to have to bring the rest down to that level. In geometric terms, it's making a new circle of smaller diameter.

Yes, you're taking away many miles of future wear but whether by Lidgerwood or wheel lathe I don't think it can be helped.

As for the Lidgerwood, I have no idea but I'm going to guess that it's a matter of control and it probably comes up lacking in that regard. The cutting tool on a lathe can be precisely controlled but a crude setup like this probably cannot be. For one thing, when you hit the flat spot, the brake arm is going to move inward and cut there too which on a lathe it would not. If there was some way to move to the middle of the flat...and attach some sort of restraining apparatus and adjust it so the cutter can never move farther inward than that level it would help but I bet that doesn't exist. Which is why this gadget is probably not the ideal and maybe is best used for partial correct with serious recontouring done by more precise methods. For the incident with 4449 in 1975, they were actually cutting what an ICC inspector called a condemnable flange down to size.

If there was a way to make something like this that worked with good precision I think it would save a lot of time and money in terms of dropping drivers and shipping them off to distant shops. I wonder if anyone has given it some thought.

Disclaimer: Please be aware that this is 100% non-professional armchair speculation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/12 16:22 by filmteknik.

Didn't someone come up with a jig to lathe wheels on the loco? I want to say it was the SP&S 700, they pulled the rods off, jack it up, set up a drive motor to turn the wheel, and set up the cutter. It's hard core machine work, at the size of the drivers even taking off 1/8th an inch will be quite a few dozen pounds of metal after you do all 8, don't forget you'll have to cut them ALL the same based on which wheel happens to be worst. I'd bet it would be a couple weeks worth of boring, hot, sweaty, uncomfortable work.

I also have the idea of a 'bridged' cutter, think of something similar in appearance to a wiper arm, but rigid. I'd use 4 'pucks' to slide on the wheel, with the cutter in the middle. The pucks are wider from each other then the defect, so the whole fixture would ride over the top of the low spot.

Anything is better then hammering the axle bearings (and flues and crew) several thousand times on it's way back home-about 252 blows per mile, always on the same spot. She's be lucky if only the bearings were damaged and not the bores they ride in!

Robert

QU25C Wrote:
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> This is funny!


BTW Not about the 844 but the dumb banter back and forth

HotWater Wrote:
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> ddg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> I'm thinking the PC should trip on any
> controlling
> or trailing diesels units that are on line, no
> matter where it's at, in any train when the
> brakes
> go into emergency. Of course it won't trip from
> a
> service reduction.
>
> Sorry, you are not correct. The PC switch ONLY
> affects the LEAD, i.e. CONTROLLING, unit that has
> an ACTIVE brake valve set-up. The PC switch
> interrupts the TRAIN-LINE generator field circuit,
> and thus "un-loads the lead/controlling unit and
> ALL trailing units.


Actually, if the automatic brake was in the HANDLE OFF position, which it should be on a diesel helper behind a steam locomotive or anywhere else in a train besides in the lead consist, the PC WILL trip on this unit when an emergency application is encountered. This applies only to helper units that are not in distributed power operation, by the way.

Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:
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> Would a Lidgderwood device do an accurate
> enough job, or would it take so much metal
> off the tires that they would have to be
> replaced much earlier than expected?

The Lidgerwood thing would do a fine (or at least pretty good) job of reprofiling the tread "left to right" as it were. It would remove a wear groove in the tread, for instance. Unfortuantely because it is attached to the fairly easily movable brake shoe hanger, it will do next to nothing for a flat spot, because it will simply follow the existing radial wheel profile.

A similar hack that would work a lot better on a flat spot would be abrasive brake shoes. These would be longer and curve around the tire, so would take a moderately even cut off of the round part of the tire, but because of their curvature, would (maybe) tend to "skip over" the flat spot. I'd expect that to work fine for a minor flat spot, but if this is any sort of major thing, it might take too long to do enough cutting, and you might lose the wheel bearings by then. It might also be hard to control the cutting for all drivers to keep them about the same size.

It would be better to use a real lathe if you possibbly could.

> HotWater Wrote:

> Yes. An emergency application will knock out the
> entire consist through the PC on a unit set up for
> "LEAD". When we would pick up a unit or built a
> consist, part of the air brake test was to center
> the reverser, rev them up to R-4, and make an
> emergency application, to see if the entire
> consist dropped back to idle. Are the MU boxes on
> excursion steamers not equipped with a PC switch?
> If not, then during an emergency application from
> any source, yes, a human would have to idle the
> trailing diesel with it's throttle or Gen field
> switch.

All this time I had assumed that whenever a steam-powered excursion had a trailing diesel locomotive that said diesel locomotive was manned while underway...I guess I assumed wrong, Jack.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/12 00:16 by 2472Don.

2472Don Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > HotWater Wrote:
>
> > Yes. An emergency application will knock out
> the
> > entire consist through the PC on a unit set up
> for
> > "LEAD". When we would pick up a unit or built a
> > consist, part of the air brake test was to
> center
> > the reverser, rev them up to R-4, and make an
> > emergency application, to see if the entire
> > consist dropped back to idle. Are the MU boxes
> on
> > excursion steamers not equipped with a PC
> switch?
> > If not, then during an emergency application
> from
> > any source, yes, a human would have to idle the
> > trailing diesel with it's throttle or Gen field
> > switch.
>
> All this time I had assumed that whenever a
> steam-powered excursion had a trailing diesel
> locomotive that said diesel locomotive was manned
> while underway...I guess I assumed wrong, Jack.


I imagine all three & 1/2 seats are usually full anyway, but if it's being controlled from the MU box on steamer, why would it need to be manned at all? It's just a trailing unit. It has to be notched down by the same guy that's operating the lead locomotive. Unless for some reason it's actually being double headed by a seperate engineer.

From observation, I believe the diesel is always manned. As has been discussed here before, the MU box in the steam locomotive doesn't control dynamic braking - one of the main reasons they use the diesel. There is often chatter between the steam and diesel engineer on the radio.

typebangin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From observation, I believe the diesel is always
> manned. As has been discussed here before, the MU
> box in the steam locomotive doesn't control
> dynamic braking - one of the main reasons they use
> the diesel. There is often chatter between the
> steam and diesel engineer on the radio.


So,if the MU box doesn't have DB controls, then the diesel has to be operated seperately by an engineer, to provide both power and DB. In that case, it's truly being doubleheaded, not MU'd. The diesel's reverser will have to be in the direction of travel, and generator field "up", and it cannot be controlled by the controlling locomotive, steam or diesel. If the diesel has to provide DB, it's controls have to be set up to lead, but it's air brake system would have to be in "trail cut-out", because the leading locomotive has to control the brakes. Years ago when Frisco 1522 was still running, they had to bad order and set out several EMD 70-MACs for problems that developed while they were being doubleheaded behind 1522. They told us the computer system on the MAC's didn't like having it's air brakes system set up to trail, while someone was at the controls operating the engine in power & db. I don't know if this was actually the problem or they just had poblematic MAC's, but an older unit with non-computerized air brakes might have been more compatible.

ddg,

You have made WAY TOO MANY assumptions.

Pegasuspinto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't someone come up with a jig to lathe wheels
> on the loco? I want to say it was the SP&S 700,
> they pulled the rods off, jack it up, set up a
> drive motor to turn the wheel, and set up the
> cutter. It's hard core machine work, at the size
> of the drivers even taking off 1/8th an inch will
> be quite a few dozen pounds of metal after you do
> all 8, don't forget you'll have to cut them ALL
> the same based on which wheel happens to be worst.
> I'd bet it would be a couple weeks worth of
> boring, hot, sweaty, uncomfortable work.
>
> I also have the idea of a 'bridged' cutter, think
> of something similar in appearance to a wiper arm,
> but rigid. I'd use 4 'pucks' to slide on the
> wheel, with the cutter in the middle. The pucks
> are wider from each other then the defect, so the
> whole fixture would ride over the top of the low
> spot.
>
> Anything is better then hammering the axle
> bearings (and flues and crew) several thousand
> times on it's way back home-about 252 blows per
> mile, always on the same spot. She's be lucky if
> only the bearings were damaged and not the bores
> they ride in!
>
> Robert


Yes, PRPA did build machinery to turn the drivers in place.

Your statement is false. An emergency application of the brakes, either by the engineer or an undersired emergency application (UDE)will open the PCS (Pneumatic Control Switch). On UPRR diesel locomotives the PCS drops out after 20 seconds after the brakes go into emergency. This automatically drops the load on all the diesel engines in the consist. Trailing locomotives which must be in "Trail" position have no affect on the operation of the PCS switch.

This operates in this fashion to prevent damage to equipment. There is no way to "cut-out" this feature.

Further, it is not permitted for the engineer to "open" the Generator Field switch while the engine is loading.





"When trailing diesel units are MU'ed to the steam locomotive's in cab "MU Control Box", the brake valves in any and all trailing diesel units is placed in "TRAIL", or effectively "CUT OUT". Thus, there is NO PC switch involved. All the Engineer has to do is: FIRST bail off the engine brakes, Second start closing the throttle while flipping OFF the Generator Field switch on the "MU Control Box" and the MU'ed diesel instantly stoops loading."

Excellent information RetiredUPRREngineer. Way back in 1975 when EMD designed and built the MU Control Boxes, we were all cautioned about the possibility of the PC switch having NO EFFECT on trailing units MU'ed with the steam locomotive. I would recommend that this exact function be tested, next time a diesel is MU'ed with a steam locomotive.

That is the question that UPRR Management needs to be asking, right away. If there was damage to the equipment,and possible violation of operating rules, UPRR management should remove the employees from service and have them piss tested, just like every other UP engineer who happens to find himself in hot water.





"Well PUMP, I'm afraid that you may be out of your league here. The aux tenders are NORMALLY set for "freight car" position on their brake valves, thus they are part of the TRAIN BRAKES and NOT part of the independent. Thus "bailing off" the driver brakes, ONLY actuates off the engine and tender.

On such a light consist as the train set in question, the aux tenders SHOULD have been part of the train braking system.

I also think the 64 thousand dollar question is,,,,,,,,,who the hell was running 844???????"