Steam & Excursion > Question for steam experts concerning 844.

OK, any and all experts out there, if you were in charge of UP 844, and with her current boiler "issues", what would you do first after all the flues/tubes had been removed?

I would have a beer to celebrate. But that's just me.

Fall back ten yards and punt.

I assume you've removed the jewelry and lagging.

Clean and inspect. (Boiler and running gear)

Test all staybolts (remove caps on flex bolts)

Ultrasound.

Do a Form 4 with what's been learned, so far.

Invite FRA in for a chat.

-John



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/14 11:48 by LarryDoyle.

LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I assume you've removed the jewelry and lagging.
>
> Clean and inspect. (Boiler and running gear)
>
> Test all staybolts (remove caps on flex bolts)
>
> Ultrasound.
>
> Do a Form 5 with what's been learned, so far.
>
> Invite FRA in for a chat.
>
> -John


Sounds like a good & logical start. Thanks for your participation. However, what is a "Form 5"?

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sounds like a good & logical start. Thanks for
> your participation.

Do I get the job?

>However, what is a "Form 5"?

Let's call it a typo or a brain f***. Your choice. I'll correct above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/14 11:50 by LarryDoyle.

How do you test the staybolts?

Since you specifically asked about 844, the answer is
actually pretty simple.

Tackle the most important jobs first:

Carefully remove all the stainless jacket nuts, dog bowls
and exposed brass parts such as the window frames.

Carefully clean and inspect each one for scratches, dents
or discoloration.

Polish each with fine jewelers rouge. Apply a layer of
clear wax or Imron clear coat to each.

Carefully wrap each item in soft, lintless cloth and store
in an environment with controlled temperature and humidity.

Focus a video camera on the storage area to make sure
nothing is tampered with or comes up missing.

When this work is complete, carefully examine the boiler,
looking especially closely to see if you can locate any
of those mysterious things commonly called "washout plugs."

If you find any, call in experts to tell you what they
are for and how to operate them.

Once this work is completed, formulate alibis and excuses
for why a boiler that was in top condition a couple of years
ago is now a mess.

Note: There is no way it could be result of anything
you did or didn't bother to do.

While this is going on, figure up how many years and
millions of dollars will be needed to repair this obvious
abuse and neglect by your predecessors.

Call Jim Wrinn.



Did I leave out anything important?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/14 12:37 by Realist.

CPRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you test the staybolts?


You go inside the firebox with a stick of wood between your teeth, and place the end against the inside end of a bolt. You have someone on the outside end tap the same bolt with a hammer, and you can feel whether the bolt is solid or broken.

I kid you not, that is the old-fashioned way of doing it.

-John

LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CPRR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How do you test the staybolts?
>
>
> You go inside the firebox with a stick of wood
> between your teeth, and place the end against the
> inside end of a bolt. You have someone on the
> outside end tap the same bolt with a hammer, and
> you can feel whether the bolt is solid or broken.
>
> I kid you not, that is the old-fashioned way of
> doing it.
>
> -John


If the staybolts have telltale holes, the bolts can be
tested electrically rather than by pounding on them.

Or, you can do both.

I didn't anything about removing scale from the inside of the boiler shell.

"Clean and inspect. (Boiler and running gear)"

I'd form a consulting firm, putting Steve Lee in charge for about four times the last salary he collected from UP. Give him a carte blanche run, sit back and enjoy the restoration.

nycman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd form a consulting firm, putting Steve Lee in
> charge for about four times the last salary he
> collected from UP. Give him a carte blanche run,
> sit back and enjoy the restoration.


Never happen. That well has been completely
poisoned by the current misfit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/14 14:57 by Realist.

garrett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would have a beer to celebrate. But that's just
> me.


Only one?

LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Sounds like a good & logical start. Thanks for
> > your participation.
>
> Do I get the job?
>
> >However, what is a "Form 5"?
>
> Let's call it a typo or a brain f***. Your
> choice. I'll correct above.


I assume you include the firebox in your boiler inspection...

The "electrical test" does NOT test the staybolts!

Myth 2: All caps of all flexible bolts must be removed.

For clarity: some flexible staybolts (Flannery Flexibles, for example) are drilled from the threaded-end all the way into the round head at the top.
The hole must penetrate the head by 1/3 the head's diameter. The hole, if NOT plugged, would soon fill in with hard-caked carbon, ashes and other products of combustion.
This accumulation can block cracked bolts from weeping/seeping out of the telltale hole ---whether from operating pressure or from hydrostatic test pressure.

For comparison, so-called rigid staybolts are commonly drilled a short distance into each end, enough to get beyond the thickness of the stayed sheet(s). The idea is that a bolt that is begginning to fail will tear near the shifting, shaking inner and outer firebox sheets. Hopefully, when the tear progresses, it will eventually crack the hole wall --- and thus spray steam & water when uder pressure.

Thus, to prevent the caked accumulation, Flannnery's Porous Plugs (sand & binder-based) are hammered into the telltale hole (at the firebox end of the bolt) prior to the loco being placed into service. Now, these staybolts must be tested periodically and be cleaned out --- by destroying the porous plug, inserting a long needle-like 'air lance' and blowing the hole out, nice and clean.
[ NOTE: Wear all appropriate PPE if doing this operation, especially good-sealing eye protection!]

However, you could never be sure that you had gotten --cleaned-- all the way to the bottom of the telltale hole.
And, boiler inspectors were empowered, and expected, to test every hole, in every Flannery-like hollow bolt to ensure that they could be satisfied that ALL the holes were clean and open all the way to the bottom.

To enhance the 'testing', the telltale holes are internally copper plated ---- all the way into the head and its end. Thus, the electrical conductivity test is simply a battery operated lamp lighted by the insertion of a long, insulated probed, with only the pointed tip exposed. If the tip is blocked by soot or other debris, the lamp will not light (the negative side of the battery is a flexible ground-wire with a tee-handled, coarse thread, screw that is twisted securely into a cleaned-out, neighboring, staybolt hole's opening. The 'ground-screw' bites into the copper plating for a secure electrical and mechanical connection.

IF, the tested bolt has had it's hole properly cleaned all the way into the head, when the insulated probe is inserted into the 'verification hole', it will only make contact to the copper plating at the hole's 'bottom' --- thus, visibly lighting & verifying that the hole is clean and that the hole is OPEN all the way to the end.
All, similar electrically-tested bolts must be tested to ensure that the telltale holes are open and clean.

The next step is to perform an approved hydrostatic test (25% above boiler operating pressure). This is intended to 'stretch' ALL the staybolts in the firebox, thus opening any minute cracks in the root, or other portion, of the staybolts' threads --- the water seepage through cracked or broken staybolts, condemns that bolt ---- it must be replaced. The FRA rules allow for continued operation with only a few bolts in in boiler to be broken. Best Practices, however, dictate that any and all such defective bolts must be replaced.

That includes ALL staybolts that "Fail" the electrical test procedures, above. If the test lamp doesn't light, there is some blockage preventing you from getting to the bottom of the telltale hole(s).

OR ----- some un-knowing 'railfan-type' took a modern electric drill and drilled the staybolt holes, while recklessly removing the copper conductivity-plating. When that happens and the FRA, or other inspectors, cannot get successful teat lamp results ---- the ruined bolts must all be replaced.

Another result may be that the original porous plugs were removed, the tests completed and the holes were never re-sealed with a porous "sealing plug".
Also, the porous plug must be allowed spray steam and water (into the firebox) while the engine is in-service --- to aid the firebox 'hot-inspectors' locate and mark these broken bolts.
AGAIN, the plugs MUST be porous to allow this warning to be available anytime the firebox is under pressure.

I'm curious to know how Flannery made these hollow staybolts, as long as some of them are. It seems to me that a long drill would tend to 'wander' too often in the manufacture process & how they avoided an unacceptable failure rate of new-manufactured product. Also, what process did they use to copper plate those millions of staybolt holes?

One last thought: Many RRs unnecessarily [IMHO] removed ALL screw-caps on all flexible bolts, Flannerys included. On Flannery-like bolts, the successful electric test obviates the need to remove the caps and tap the heads for curiosity's sake. YES, 'non-drilled' flexibles must have access to all available surfaces for hammering, etc. So, be careful before you scorn folks that may have been trained that ALL caps must be removed.

Wes C.

Txhighballer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I assume you include the firebox in your boiler
> inspection...

"Clean and inspect. (Boiler and running gear)"

How can I make this more clear???

Unless, you want the FRA guy to sit down with you, eat your coffee and donuts, and leave saying "That was nice. Call me again when you're ready to talk."

-John

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The "electrical test" does NOT test the
> staybolts!
>
> Myth 2: All caps of all flexible bolts must be
> removed.
>
> For clarity: some flexible staybolts (Flannery
> Flexibles, for example) are drilled from the
> threaded-end all the way into the round head at
> the top.
> The hole must penetrate the head by 1/3 the head's
> diameter. The hole, if NOT plugged, would soon
> fill in with hard-caked carbon, ashes and other
> products of combustion.
> This accumulation can block cracked bolts from
> weeping/seeping out of the telltale hole
> ---whether from operating pressure or from
> hydrostatic test pressure.
>
> For comparison, so-called rigid staybolts are
> commonly drilled a short distance into each end,
> enough to get beyond the thickness of the stayed
> sheet(s). The idea is that a bolt that is
> begginning to fail will tear near the shifting,
> shaking inner and outer firebox sheets.
> Hopefully, when the tear progresses, it will
> eventually crack the hole wall --- and thus spray
> steam & water when uder pressure.
>
> Thus, to prevent the caked accumulation,
> Flannnery's Porous Plugs (sand & binder-based) are
> hammered into the telltale hole (at the firebox
> end of the bolt) prior to the loco being placed
> into service. Now, these staybolts must be tested
> periodically and be cleaned out --- by destroying
> the porous plug, inserting a long needle-like 'air
> lance' and blowing the hole out, nice and clean.
> [ NOTE: Wear all appropriate PPE if doing this
> operation, especially good-sealing eye
> protection!]
>
> However, you could never be sure that you had
> gotten --cleaned-- all the way to the bottom of
> the telltale hole.
> And, boiler inspectors were empowered, and
> expected, to test every hole, in every
> Flannery-like hollow bolt to ensure that they
> could be satisfied that ALL the holes were clean
> and open all the way to the bottom.
>
> To enhance the 'testing', the telltale holes are
> internally copper plated ---- all the way into the
> head and its end. Thus, the electrical
> conductivity test is simply a battery operated
> lamp lighted by the insertion of a long, insulated
> probed, with only the pointed tip exposed. If the
> tip is blocked by soot or other debris, the lamp
> will not light (the negative side of the battery
> is a flexible ground-wire with a tee-handled,
> coarse thread, screw that is twisted securely into
> a cleaned-out, neighboring, staybolt hole's
> opening. The 'ground-screw' bites into the copper
> plating for a secure electrical and mechanical
> connection.
>
> IF, the tested bolt has had it's hole properly
> cleaned all the way into the head, when the
> insulated probe is inserted into the 'verification
> hole', it will only make contact to the copper
> plating at the hole's 'bottom' --- thus, visibly
> lighting & verifying that the hole is clean and
> that the hole is OPEN all the way to the end.
> All, similar electrically-tested bolts must be
> tested to ensure that the telltale holes are open
> and clean.
>
> The next step is to perform an approved
> hydrostatic test (25% above boiler operating
> pressure). This is intended to 'stretch' ALL the
> staybolts in the firebox, thus opening any minute
> cracks in the root, or other portion, of the
> staybolts' threads --- the water seepage through
> cracked or broken staybolts, condemns that bolt
> ---- it must be replaced. The FRA rules allow for
> continued operation with only a few bolts in in
> boiler to be broken. Best Practices, however,
> dictate that any and all such defective bolts must
> be replaced.
>
> That includes ALL staybolts that "Fail" the
> electrical test procedures, above. If the test
> lamp doesn't light, there is some blockage
> preventing you from getting to the bottom of the
> telltale hole(s).
>
> OR ----- some un-knowing 'railfan-type' took a
> modern electric drill and drilled the staybolt
> holes, while recklessly removing the copper
> conductivity-plating. When that happens and the
> FRA, or other inspectors, cannot get successful
> teat lamp results ---- the ruined bolts must all
> be replaced.
>
> Another result may be that the original porous
> plugs were removed, the tests completed and the
> holes were never re-sealed with a porous "sealing
> plug".
> Also, the porous plug must be allowed spray steam
> and water (into the firebox) while the engine is
> in-service --- to aid the firebox 'hot-inspectors'
> locate and mark these broken bolts.
> AGAIN, the plugs MUST be porous to allow this
> warning to be available anytime the firebox is
> under pressure.
>
> I'm curious to know how Flannery made these hollow
> staybolts, as long as some of them are. It seems
> to me that a long drill would tend to 'wander' too
> often in the manufacture process & how they
> avoided an unacceptable failure rate of
> new-manufactured product. Also, what process did
> they use to copper plate those millions of
> staybolt holes?
>
> One last thought: Many RRs unnecessarily removed
> ALL screw-caps on all flexible bolts, Flannerys
> included. On Flannery-like bolts, the successful
> electric test obviates the need to remove the caps
> and tap the heads for curiosity's sake. YES,
> 'non-drilled' flexibles must have access to all
> available surfaces for hammering, etc. So, be
> careful before you scorn folks that may have been
> trained that ALL caps must be removed.
>
> Wes C.

Part of the electrical test of hollow flexis is cleaning
out the holes their full length before using the tester.

Never saw a boilermaker's too cart that didn't have some
sort of tool just for that purpose. Sometimes made by
the boilermaker himself to suit him. Not really a drill
bit, because the one for the long bolts would be too
fragile.

A small diameter piece of rod with one end flattened to
act as a shovel or gouge would do the trick.

THEN you used the tester, knowing that the hole was clean
all the way to the bottom.

When done, on oil burners, the hole would be sealed with a
porous plug, until the next inspection, or until water
coming out the hole announced the bolt was broken and had
to be replaced.

Since I am in no way a steam expert,I am always curious when I read about the various tests involved; just what does cost to do all the tests involved?