Steam & Excursion > N&W 611 Restoration Question

So, with the 611 currently being restored in North Carolina are there any plans to add a Diesel MU Control Box to the cab? It would seem like a convenience in today's day and age if not a necessity. Second, I have heard that they are working on new wheels for the pony truck. Anyone have any updates on this project? Normally I would just check their Facebook page but it has been pretty quiet as of late.

Thanks for your input.

Brendan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/14 17:52 by Brendan611.

Brendan611 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, with the 611 currently being restored in North
> Carolina are there any plans to add a Diesel MU
> Control Box to the cab? It would seem like a
> convenience in today's day and age if not a
> necessity. Second, I have heard that they are
> working on new wheels for the pony truck. Anyone
> have any updates on this project? Normally I would
> just check their Facebook page but it has been
> pretty quiet as of late.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Brendan

She didn't have one previously, so I don't know why she would need one in the future. I don't think SR 630 has one either, nor does 4501.

They could always borrow #765's,other than Horseshoe Curve, they seldom use it anymore. 0r, they could borrow one from UP. they don't need theirs for the foreseeable future, and the current crew doesn't know how to use it anyway. :). Sorry, I just could resist that one.....

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/14 21:17 by junctiontower.

junctiontower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They could always borrow #765's,other than
> Horseshoe Curve, they seldom use it anymore. 0r,
> they could borrow one from UP. they don't need
> theirs for the foreseeable future, and the current
> crew doesn't know how to use it anyway. :). Sorry,
> I just could resist that one.....
>
> Posted from Android


Don't need to borrow it. They can just get it from the dumpster out back.
(I couldn't resist that one either. It's sad that it's so easy...)

Ladies and gentleman, I am going to introduce you to a totally new concept. We call it...Pure Steam. It doesn't need a diesel helper!

611 used helpers before and probably will again.

Posted from Android

junctiontower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They could always borrow #765's,other than
> Horseshoe Curve, they seldom use it anymore.

Electricity isn't rocket science, though from the early history of the steam roads you would sure think it was. Someone posted the schematic for one of those control boxes on TO a couple years ago, and other than the possible difficulty of scaring up an MU cable connector, making one is a weekend project for someone with a drill press, nut driver, and a soldering iron. (Plan on about a week from making up the BOM to getting the necessary parts (other than MU connector) from Mouser or Digikey.)

lwilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Electricity isn't rocket science, though from the
> early history of the steam roads you would sure
> think it was. Someone posted the schematic for one
> of those control boxes on TO a couple years ago,
> and other than the possible difficulty of scaring
> up an MU cable connector, making one is a weekend
> project for someone with a drill press, nut
> driver, and a soldering iron. (Plan on about a
> week from making up the BOM to getting the
> necessary parts (other than MU connector) from
> Mouser or Digikey.)

Actually not quite as simple as you think, especially since those heavy-duty components such as that that throttle rotary switch and the FOR-CENTER-REV switch are no longer available. Real computer controlled modern day locomotives don't use such stuff any longer.

I did some research on that stuff a few years ago. You are of course correct, the original railroad equipment is NLS, unless you are lucky and find it in a scrapyard or surplus store.

However, 20A and 40A rotary switches are still pretty common industrial control sort of stuff. I remember coming up with a stock item substitute for the Run Speed switch, which was about the fanciest piece of hardware in the box. I forget what else there was other than some toggle switches and panel lights, all of which are stock items.

If someone had problems finding switches with the necessary current rating, small DC relays with contacts rated at 10 thru about 50-60 amps are trivial to come by, and of course contactors come in ratings to thousands of amps. So it could equally easily be done as a two-section control box, with light-duty controls in the cab, and a box chained to the front railing on the diesel with the power relays in it. Personally I'd prefer to do it with snap and rotary switches, as there is less chance of contact bounce on rough road.

I think Jack said that the box he helped design at EMD didn't have dynamics because there was no way to remotely meter the current. I guess some others have this but are operating them blind. The question I have is this. Do you need to know the current to effectively operate dynamic brakes or is that just something you want to prevent burning out the grids or overheating the motors? Because if it's the latter then maybe it's not so much an issue anymore if you are running a modern diesel as helper because presumably the computers would prevent burning anything up.

I agree the parts are all easily available and if there was any problem getting a rotary switch of sufficient ampacity, you just take what you can get and use it to control some relays.

Rotary switches are pretty customizable. Pick the wafers you need, add a shaft to fit, and off you go.

http://www.electro-nc.com/selectswitch.shtml

Don't come back and tell me Mil-spec and aircraft quality approved components aren't good enough...

filmteknik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> didn't have dynamics because there was no way
> to remotely meter the current. I guess some
> others have this but are operating them blind.

There seems to be no provision for remotely monitoring the current when MU'd with a diesel in the lead. You could see the lead unit but presumably the trailing units could be so different (MU is supposed to be compatible between manufacturers, models, and vastly different ages) that they might be a problem there too, either with dynamic brakes OR while loaded and pulling.

Military is fine, but those you provide a pointer to are all way too puny for this application. At a quick scan the huskiest thing I find is 11A at 28V, which is just beginning to get interesting, but it is an open-contact switch, which would be bad news in this application.

You want something more like this: http://www.nkkswitches.com/pdf/hs_ps_ts.pdf

Emmo213...We meet again. I have approximately 4,000 feet of personally taken, 16mm Kodachrome movies of 611, (plus 8mm movies taken by me at Schaffers Crossing turntable in Roanoke, taken in 1959). I have NO movies of her with a diesel helper. I guess I was just lucky... (or planned it that way).

Pegasuspinto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> filmteknik Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > didn't have dynamics because there was no way
> > to remotely meter the current. I guess some
> > others have this but are operating them blind.
>
> There seems to be no provision for remotely
> monitoring the current when MU'd with a diesel in
> the lead. You could see the lead unit but
> presumably the trailing units could be so
> different (MU is supposed to be compatible between
> manufacturers, models, and vastly different ages)
> that they might be a problem there too, either
> with dynamic brakes OR while loaded and pulling.


Both of you aren't exactly correct. The MAIN concern with NOT having dynamic brake control of trailing diesels from the steam locomotive MU Control Box, was due to NO SAFETY PROTECTION PROVIDED FOR SWITCHING INTO DB. Remember that in a control stand there are mechanical interlocks to prevent an operator from going into DB while still in power, i.e. the throttle MUST be reduced to idle, before the DB lever will even move. Such mechanical interlocking is NOT possible within the Diesel MU Control Box, thus an operator could "switch into DB" while the throttle was still powering in forward. Very big bang in the high voltage electrical equipment!

Open switch would be fine, you are putting it all in it's own dust-sealed box. But the higher amp ratings are nice, they also make the switch larger/more robust one would hope. I've never seen (never looked too hard) at how many amps the lead unit is expected to supply, but it can't be much, since it all comes back through one ground wire. Biggest issue is getting the 74 volt feed in a steam loco. I'm sure that is part of the reason UP put two turbogenerators on their engines, also wonder if the modern AAR radios can be had in 32 volt anymore?
Bottom line is that MU is all 1940's technology, not hard to replicate.

Has anyone considered using a DPU remote? I don't know if DPU is basically integrated into the locomotives so deeply that a stand-alone DPU controller might be a ground up build....

That's about the only way to get around Jack's issue. Use a standalone Harris box and a
DPU compatible "helper" unit and off you go. Not the most difficult thing to do.

Out

Pegasuspinto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Open switch would be fine, you are putting it all
> in it's own dust-sealed box. But the higher amp
> ratings are nice, they also make the switch
> larger/more robust one would hope. I've never
> seen (never looked too hard) at how many amps the
> lead unit is expected to supply, but it can't be
> much, since it all comes back through one ground
> wire.

There is no "ground wire". The 74V DC comes of the 27 pin train "POS" wire, and is returned back thru the 27 pin "Neg" wire.

Biggest issue is getting the 74 volt feed
> in a steam loco.

No, this is NO "74V DC" on a steam locomotive.

I'm sure that is part of the
> reason UP put two turbogenerators on their
> engines,

No, the second turbogenerator was for the UP Cab signal & C&NW Train Control systems, all 32V DC.

also wonder if the modern AAR radios can
> be had in 32 volt anymore?
> Bottom line is that MU is all 1940's technology,
> not hard to replicate.

Thru mid 1970s technology, for the Diesel MU Control Box, designed for 4449 on the American Freedom Train.
>
> Has anyone considered using a DPU remote? I don't
> know if DPU is basically integrated into the
> locomotives so deeply that a stand-alone DPU
> controller might be a ground up build….


No enough room on the steam locomotive for all that GE/Harris radio equipment, not to mention the heat environment for those fancy computers and computer screens.

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's about the only way to get around Jack's
> issue. Use a standalone Harris box and a
> DPU compatible "helper" unit and off you go. Not
> the most difficult thing to do.
>
> Out

Use a remote control unit and have someone in the cab wear the belt pack!!!! ;-)

It's a little bulky, but I've had some older NS units that were "master" units for their (Southern's) "radio trains" where the control box for the "slaves" was mounted on top of the control stand. It would seem like the components of the box, (rotary switch, warning lights etc,) could be installed in a smaller housing to kit bash a MU box if one was needed for steam operation. Just leave out all the radio controlled equipment / connections? Surely NS has one or two of these sitting around in some dusty room somewhere after they were removed from the road power... or maybe a museum has one?

The modern day DPU stuff y'all are talking about would never work; way too many data radios, computers, power hungry electronics, & too much "crap" to try to put on a steam locomotive.