Steam & Excursion > User "SSW819" and the locomotive 819

SSW819 is John Reagon, not an official or representative of the Cotton Belt Rail Historical Society, nor an SSW819 crew member. He is a paid member of the CBRHS which anyone here can do by sending a check to the CBRHS. Nothing more. However he is known to be trying to contact other parties who he believes could be of use to 819, usually without any previous discussion with anyone else, let alone anyone in 'charge'. He's managed to contact Ed Dickens and Ross Rowland among others and has undoubtedly been trying to talk to the BNSF, UP, KCS and probably others. He has worked at Reader Railroad but from my discussions with them it was for little more then general labor.

There simply, in all reality, is no 819 team/crew right now. No leadership, no plan, no budget. Not a single thing has been done to 819 in about 10 years that could be legitimately be called 'restoration'. It's become a chicken and egg situation. You can't get money/volunteers/interest without definitive plans to run, and you can't get permission to run without money, plans, and crew. Yes I know that hasn't stopped others but that and other factors and that's where we are at. Yes, I and others want to change that, but this is only going to happen from the inside, out. When you see something on CBRHS and some RR's letterhead, then it's time to get excited.....

Robert Longhofer
Not a board member, not a crew member, just a member of CBRHS and a volunteer at the Arkansas Railroad Museum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/14 17:02 by Pegasuspinto.

Well, I guess this sure explains a lot about that previous thread about the 819, that has since been deleted.

At one time when 1522 suffered the derailment, the SLSTA discussed making an offer to lease, rent,borrow, steal or otherwise obtain the 819, finish the work on her and use her instead of 1522. Discussions with a couple of individuals (Nobody in Pine Bluff) we were advised to not waste our time.
I've always regretted that we weren't able to do this. That's a great engine and would have worked well for us.
We also inspected and made several proposals to the City of Tulsa to do the same with the 4500, but were stonewalled by them. That engine was in beautiful shape with the boiler exterior in pristine condition and looking good inside the firebox/smokebox. It was rumored that she had few miles on an overhaul. In this case I believed it.
A wise soul in the steam industry told me years ago (he knows who he is)that more engines were parked due to political/ego puffing and infighting than for mechanical reasons. He was right.

Pegasuspinto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SSW819 is John Reagon, not an official or
> representative of the Cotton Belt Rail Historical
> Society, nor an SSW819 crew member. He is a paid
> member of the CBRHS which anyone here can do by
> sending a check to the CBRHS. Nothing more.
> However he is known to be trying to contact other
> parties who he believes could be of use to 819,
> usually without any previous discussion with
> anyone else, let alone anyone in 'charge'. He's
> managed to contact Ed Dickens and Ross Rowland
> among others and has undoubtedly been trying to
> talk to the BNSF, UP, KCS and probably others. He
> has worked at Reader Railroad but from my
> discussions with them it was for little more then
> general labor.
>
> There simply, in all reality, is no 819 team/crew
> right now. No leadership, no plan, no budget.
> Not a single thing has been done to 819 in about
> 10 years that could be legitimately be called
> 'restoration'. It's become a chicken and egg
> situation. You can't get
> money/volunteers/interest without definitive plans
> to run, and you can't get permission to run
> without money, plans, and crew. Yes I know that
> hasn't stopped others but that and other factors
> and that's where we are at. Yes, I and others
> want to change that, but this is only going to
> happen from the inside, out. When you see
> something on CBRHS and some RR's letterhead, then
> it's time to get excited.....
>
> Robert Longhofer
> Not a board member, not a crew member, just a
> member of CBRHS and a volunteer at the Arkansas
> Railroad Museum.


Not that big of a surprise. He's posted bogus 819
stuff in the past.

So two bogus threads today, this 819 thing and the wreck/fire of NS 8025 (MGA heritage) in PA.

These idiots should have their TO.com memberships cancelled.

Bill Miller
Galt, ON

What a shame to post info just to get the steam community (or any, really,) riled up, whether it is good or bad. It should just be true, or a "What if" or "wishful thinking" tag line.

Jim Montague
IRVINE, CA
Train and Nature photo Art

Did y'all see the photo he posted of them on the 819? Just looking at the photo one could tell, with
the smug look on their faces,these guys were, as we say in Texas, all hat and no cattle.

We at least someone is trying to do something. Maybe not the best way, but formulating an operating plan is the place to start.

unseenthings Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We at least someone is trying to do something.
> Maybe not the best way, but formulating an
> operating plan is the place to start.


They haven't even done their 15 year FRA inspection, nor ultra-sonic testing, and you want them to "formulate an operating plan"?

For quite some time I have read many "fantasy" posts, or just angry and frustrated stir the pot posts(about many steam programs, UP and on). I would love to see more steam and not lose what we have and had. The writing is on the wall $$$$$$$(insurance, operating cost I imagine the list is almost endless) and sponsor railroads. If Mr SSW819 has contacted said such agencies what will they think when a organized steam program does approach them.

Speaking out of turn does their organization zero good. It would be better form a plan to get the 819 operational, then while that phase is going on, worry about who is going to let you operate it, and under what conditions, insurance, etc.. Those things will come. They always do,if done right.

That's all very true BUT you've got a better chance at donations if you've got an
operating plan up front, case in point the 2926 group.

Out

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's all very true BUT you've got a better
> chance at donations if you've got an
> operating plan up front, case in point the 2926
> group.
>
> Out

Yes but, the 2926 is actually DOING something on their locomotive, and have been make great progress for many years. Plus, the 2926 organization has an excellent website with REGULAR up-dates on the work progressions.

You guys have hit on something that is seldom discussed but is very real.
For every well-planned, well-organized, well-funded operation that is out
there, there are at least a dozen others that were nutty from the get-go,
have zero chance of every happening, but leave bad feelings behind that
the real "doers" have to contend with an overcome.

This 819 thing is a great example. I'm sure this guy and his comrades
think they are on top of this situation. Just the opposite. If they are
talking to railroads about looney-toon stuff, before they have an operable
engine, cars, people, insurance, and the thousand other things necessary
to do something like this, they are just pissing into the wind.

However, the NEXT group that comes along with a realistic plan first has
to convince those who had the misfortune to have had to deal with the
dewey-eyed nutcases that they aren't just like them. It's an uphill
fight.

You would not believe some of the weird crap some of these people come
up with, and some of them are just downright dishonest, such as the
"filmmaker" who never made a film in his life but got a lot of gullible
people to donate money for him to make a movie featuring UP 4018. Then
both he and the money disappeared.

Another untold stories involves the Mexican PA's. Every time there was
close to a deal to get these home, some nitwit group would try to get
into the middle of it, which only set the whole thing back by years.

Did anyone note the irony in the fact that the UP guy he has claimed
to have talked to has managed to turn that program into a non-operating
mess?

Yep. That's the first place I'd go for advice. Then again, they have
a lot in common, since they both preside over dead steam locomotives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/14 12:45 by Realist.

What ever happened to all those matching silver/gray cars that the 819 used to pull? I chased 819 twice with that matching set. I thought the whole train set was beautiful, as was the 4-8-4 on the front.

There are credible ways to go about these things. In past cases, they were successful.
First: Have a bulletproof business plan! No pie in the sky BS, but a realistic plan with a rough timeline.
Second: Have a team that is knowledgeable in restoration and operation lined up and ready. Have a leader who understands how business operates who can muzzle his ego and is a good communicator and negotiator.
Third: Go shopping and line up people with skills that will apply to getting the job done and/or know people to consult on things they DON'T understand, rather than running off half cocked.
NOW, raise funds. Until you can show people that you have a stand up group organized and have a business plan, you will end up with change in an empty cup. People who can bankroll things of this nature don't have time for moonbats. Establish yourselves as a 501 (c) (3) and if you are fortunate, have a member who is an attorney.
When it's time to start. Have a boss or CMO or whatever you want to call him with the knowledge of what order to do things, what are priority items, where to get material, how to do the tasks, has a buttload of common sense and a safe attitude. Be willing to instruct folks how to do it correctly and make sure everyone starts learning the rules and boiler codes.
Now you can call upon your team of talented folks for welding, machine work and the myriad of other jobs involved.
Don't lose sight of the goal and end up with a gondola full of parts which are unmarked for five years out in the weather. It's then that you realize you should have done a complete photo journal of the engine when it was together. Too many engines have been sitting in pieces for too many years. Don't be one of those groups.
When things are starting to go back together and after the FRA person (who you should introduce yourselves to very early in the game) is satisfied with the boiler, hydro and running gear get your people educated on how railroads work and how to keep from getting your butts killed out there.
When you are reaching this stage, it's time to really get professional. If you think nobody notices, word spreads throughout the RR industry like lightning and if you act like a bunch of asses, they will know and you will have to overcome that before you can think of running.
Train the hell out of your service crews, make sure your engine crews are thoroughly trained both in how to make the engine go, and in air brake/train handling. This is very important. Be organized. When you are ready to whistle off, nothing is going to kill you quicker than a bunch of nitwits standing around the bottom of the gangway arguing on who gets to run and fire. Another reputation killer!
When you get out on the RR, don't tell them how you want to do things. Bad move. They have a plan for you and you would be well advised not to tell them how to do it. Might be your last trip. The last thing you want to be is a pain in the ass to the RR.
Our group basically did all of the above and it was a long hard trip getting to the first trip. Our first CMO did the talent shopping thing and had people around him he had worked with on other restorations to advise. We took operation very seriously and tried to meld into the railroad's daily business. The best compliment we were paid was being treated like just another train movement and one of the road foreman in the cab saying "Damn these guys are good, they call signals, understand what is going on and make my job easier". Even when we had mechanical issues, the RR worked with us to get them fixed and were extremely cooperative. Not to brag, but I think our group went out on top.
I'm Don Wirth and I approve this message. Your mileage may vary. Side effects could include extreme disapointment, ass chewings, severed limbs and expulsion from the RR world if instructions aren't followed. Be careful out there.

There are a few old chestnuts that reappear regularly on this forum and others. They include the "steam engine at the bottom of the quarry", incorrect statements about liability insurance, and...how trackage rights will allow operation of some steam engine over some other line. The truth is: these freight trackage rights never say anything about steam-hauled excursion trains in them. This wasn't ever thought of when the agreements were written. And, while it technically is true that the railroad holding the trackage rights could try to force the hand of the host railroad into running steam passenger trips, the reality is that will never happen. Thus, while BNSF may hold trackage rights over UP somewhere in Arkansas, the reality is that UP would never allow non-UP-operated steam passenger excursions over its rails, and BNSF would never force that issue with UP, regardless of the trackage rights agreement.

Chris.

ctjacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are a few old chestnuts that reappear
> regularly on this forum and others. They include
> the "steam engine at the bottom of the quarry",
> incorrect statements about liability insurance,
> and...how trackage rights will allow operation of
> some steam engine over some other line. The truth
> is: these freight trackage rights never say
> anything about steam-hauled excursion trains in
> them. This wasn't ever thought of when the
> agreements were written. And, while it
> technically is true that the railroad holding the
> trackage rights could try to force the hand of the
> host railroad into running steam passenger trips,
> the reality is that will never happen. Thus,
> while BNSF may hold trackage rights over UP
> somewhere in Arkansas, the reality is that UP
> would never allow non-UP-operated steam passenger
> excursions over its rails, and BNSF would never
> force that issue with UP, regardless of the
> trackage rights agreement.
>
> Chris.

What incorrect statements about liability insurance?

Trackage rights agreements don't spell out what kind
of trains are allowed or not. If it doesn't give the
owning road veto power over a rights movement, then
they can do what they please.

UP and BNSF have worked together pretty well when
it comes to steam operations over each other's trackage,
99% of which is covered by rights, but in a couple of
cases are not, such as SFSFs 1522's moves between the
MOT and the connection to BNSF at Grand Avenue in MO>

Then there is UP allowing SP&S 700 and SP 4449 to run
over trackage that BNSF doesn't have rights over to get
to and from PUS.

UP allowed BNSF to run to Sacramento over trackage rights
from Keddie, and allowed 3751, 2472 and $$$( to run to
the CSRM, where BNSF does not have rights.

BNSF ran exSP 745 on trackage rights over UP in Louisiana
a number of years back.

On the other hand, BNSF never said a word when UP ran
844, then 3985 over it's rights on Cajon, it's rights
to Seattle, and Seattle to Everett, where UP does not
have rights.

BNSF let UP run 844 to Cape Girardeau where UP has
no rights, and of course 844 ran on UP rights over BNSF
between Dalhart, TX and Walsenburg, CO.

Must I go on?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/14 20:20 by Realist.

1522 ran over the UP from Houston to Beaumont, TX taking the BNSF's EAS train to Silsbee and return.
Most trips today seem to run under AMTRAK auspices for insurance purposes or in the case of the EAS, we were performing the service for the BNSF.
On a couple of trips, we ran over the NS from while moving from West Quincy, MO to Topeka, KS. A portion of that line is trackage rights on the NS. And yes, we ran 60MPH.
The 819 group peed on their feet back around 1990 and their attitude probably had some bearing on not running down to Tyler, TX after a while.
I'll let one of them explain what they did to earn that.

Realist, the moves you list above (as far as I can tell) are all either deadhead moves, or moves with just RR personnel on board - not public excursions. The SSW819 poster was (again, as far as I can tell) stating that they would be able to run public excursions over UP. Deadhead moves and public excursions are very different in terms of the approval needed, insurance, equipment, etc. etc. If the 819 group approached BNSF about running trips over their UP trackage rights, and if BNSF even entertained such trips (unlikely), UP would object to the trips. And BNSF wouldn't push the issue with them. That would be the end of it. While you are right that trackage rights don't specify the type of movement, there simply isn't any way UP would allow such trips to happen, and BNSF wouldn't fight UP over it.

As for the statements made about liability insurance over the years on this site or others: that groups can "share" a policy to save money, or that having passengers sign a waiver will reduce insurance costs, are just two of the fallacies that get repeated with some frequency on these sites. These go alongside the baggage car holding treasures under Grand Central Terminal, the width of the Space Shuttle engines, etc. etc. If you see any of the above referenced in a post, you can likely skip the rest of it.

Chris.