Steam & Excursion > question about tubes and 1472 days

I know that the engine has 1472 service days after the first tube is "installed" and I read with interest that the 2926 crew were cutting tubes to length and placing them in the boiler, but what constitutes "installed"? does that mean after the first tube is placed in position? after the first one is welded and rolled?

(a) General. Before any steam locomotive is initially put in service or brought out of retirement, and after every 1472 service days or 15 years, whichever is earlier, an individual competent to conduct the inspection shall inspect the entire boiler. In the case of a new locomotive or a locomotive being brought out of retirement, the initial 15 year period shall begin on the day that the locomotive is placed in service or 365 calendar days after the first flue tube is installed in the locomotive, whichever comes first. This 1472 service day inspection shall include all annual, and 5th annual, inspection requirements, as well as any items required by the steam locomotive owner and/or operator or the FRA inspector. At this time, the locomotive owner and/or operator shall complete, update and verify the locomotive specification card (FRA Form No. 4), to reflect the condition of the boiler at the time of this inspection. See appendices A and B of this part.

I was wondering about that too. I would interpret that as permanent installation as they are inserting them now and when all are in they will gear up in February to have their boiler service company begin welding and rolling. Of course, it's probably up to what the FRA inspector says and if he's on board with the start date being when the torch is first lit, then that will be the date.

When the first tube is rolled in the 1472 day clock starts ticking, not when the first fire is lit.

tomstp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When the first tube is rolled in the 1472 day
> clock starts ticking, not when the first fire is
> lit.

Actually I didn't mean when they first light the fire in the boiler; I used a poor choice of words. But it would be useful if someone would explain the process of how the tubes are sealed. Are they heated before rolling or cold rolled? Are they then welded to the sheet?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/15 09:21 by Cumbresfan.

1472 service day means 1472 day the boiler has steam pressure, or 15 years from the day the first tube is rolled. So it is the 15 year clock that starts ticking. 1472 day is really what they figure an engine would have seen in normal 5 years of use back in the day. 1472/365=4.03

tomstp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When the first tube is rolled in the 1472 day
> clock starts ticking, not when the first fire is
> lit.

No, read the rule again. The 365 day clock starts the day the first tube is rolled. The 15 year clock starts when the first fire is lit or 365 days after the first tube is rolled whichever occurs first. Service life ends when the 15 year clock expires or after 1472 days service whichever occurs first.

There is also no requirement that the flues be removed at the 15 year/1472 day inspection. From a practical standpoint however, the inspector must be able to make a visual inspection of the interior of the shell, and removal of at least some of the tubes facilitates this inspection.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/15 14:14 by LarryDoyle.

Isn't a boiler ultrasound required at the 1472 day inspection? If so, wouldn't at least some of the tubes require removal, or can all the measurements be accomplished from the exterior?

nycman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't a boiler ultrasound required at the 1472 day
> inspection? If so, wouldn't at least some of the
> tubes require removal, or can all the measurements
> be accomplished from the exterior?

Even though the ultrasound measurements can be taken from the outside, the FRA "law" requires a "visual inspection" of the entire inside of the boiler. Thus, some of the tubes/flues must be removed.

The 15 year clock starts when the tubes or rolled, or no more than 365 days from the date that they were rolled. In other words, if you roll them in and steam the locomotive with-in 365 days of each other, that determines the start time. In other words, clock MUST start 365 days AFTER tubes are rolled or steam in the boiler which ever comes first, but not after 365 days. The rule is 1472 SERVICE days or 15 Annual Inspections, which ever comes first. A SERVICE day is= Steam in Boiler above atmospheric or fire in the fire box or combination of both. Too many people think that a service day is a day when we used the locomotive. Not true. Fire-up, running day and cool down day are all included....even if you only ran one day!

By the way, steam records (service day report) for 2014 were due on January 19th to FRA. If any of you steam, I hope you submitted on time.

Ryland (13) p.s. My dad helped me a little with this one....:-)

Quote from CFR 49 Part 230 "definitions"

"Service day. Any calendar day that the boiler has steam pressure above atmospheric pressure with fire in the firebox. In the case of a fireless steam locomotive, any calendar day that the boiler has steam pressure above atmospheric pressure."

So to be a "Service Day" you have to have pressure AND a fire.

Great response Ryland.

You really Nailed IT.
Its a very confusing concept, so to have a clear concept of the rule, it's quirks and 'legalisms' gives you a solid base as you build your own understanding.
In the future, you will come across folks who really ARE confused about how to use and apply the Rule ---- your foundations will be unshakable and you will be able to lead folks
to their own correct understanding of the Rule --along with how to properly apply it.

There's even FRA folks who are not THAT sure about what it means.

And, Yes, its ALWAYS correct to get the facts clear in your head -- and the seeking of advice from folks who's opinion you trust, is always a very good idea.

Mark Twain said it best (words to this effect) --- Its not what you don't know that will hurt you, its what you think you know, that just ain't so!

Keep an open mind and keep exploring!
Its great to have you in the T.O. reading audience.

Wes C.

Earlk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quote from CFR 49 Part 230 "definitions"
>
> "Service day. Any calendar day that the boiler has
> steam pressure above atmospheric pressure with
> fire in the firebox. In the case of a fireless
> steam locomotive, any calendar day that the boiler
> has steam pressure above atmospheric pressure."
>
> So to be a "Service Day" you have to have
> pressure AND a fire.


That was/is a VERY important statement in that portion of the ruling. Prior to that portion be PROPERLY revised and clarified, the original rule would have penalized an operator every time the boiler was hydro teased on an annual. That is why the added reference to "and a FIRE in the firebox" is so VERY important to all steam locomotive operators, except for "fireless cookers".

RJRimmasch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> By the way, steam records (service day report) for
> 2014 were due on January 19th to FRA. If any of
> you steam, I hope you submitted on time.
>
> Ryland (13) p.s. My dad helped me a little with
> this one....:-)

I thought the date was January 31 of each year.

Hypothetical..... ( Steam loco discussion.. )

The "Fire & pressure" wording....

I park , tie-down & chock/lock
my big steamer, the pressure decreases, I've rolled a big " heel" in the back of the coal grates and thoroughly soak it with the squirt hose.


I run the injector until it "kicks off"... Boiler is full of water.
After the BP gauge needle drops to the peg, I open the boiler's air vent globe valve, mounted near the safeties.

My "bank" cokes nicely. No active fire but a lot of subsurface glowing coke. Grate is 90% covered with dead ash. Stack has vented cover over the top.
Demonstrably, there is no boiler pressure, above 'atmospheric'.

Can I take/log the days she sits with only a 'banked' fire as ' out of service days''?
Can I park her for a week, or longer, WITHOUT being penalized.

#2.....
If I wanted to add a hot water heat exchanger coil arrangement ( for attaching external steam/hot water sources) where would be the BEST place to install the heater?
Assume that sufficient flues and tubes were removed for the 1472-day inspection.



Wes C.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hypothetical..... ( Steam loco discussion.. )
>
> The "Fire & pressure" wording....
>
> I park , tie-down & chock/lock
> my big steamer,
> the pressure decreases, I've rolled a big " heel"
> in the back of the coal grates and ...

OK, Was, I'm with ya so far.

But, from here on out - I'm sorry, but - I wouldn't do any of this.

> ... thoroughly soak
> it with the squirt hose.
>
>
> I run the injector until it "kicks off"... Boiler
> is full of water.
> After the BP gauge needle drops to the peg, I open
> the boiler's air vent globe valve, mounted near
> the safeties.
>
> My "bank" cokes nicely. No active fire but a lot
> of subsurface glowing coke. Grate is 90% covered
> with dead ash. Stack has vented cover over the
> top.
> Demonstrably, there is no boiler pressure, above
> 'atmospheric'.
>
> Can I take/log the days she sits with only a
> 'banked' fire as ' out of service days''?
> Can I park her for a week, or longer, WITHOUT
> being penalized.


How long ya talking about here? I'd say, you're in for a long conversation with the FRA inspector when you sit down 15 years from now to argue your point. How many engines are there out there that can expect to run close to 1472 days before 15 years?

>
> #2.....
> If I wanted to add a hot water heat exchanger coil
> arrangement ( for attaching external steam/hot
> water sources) where would be the BEST place to
> install the heater?

How 'bout the blow down? Or, are you talking about an internal heater. If so, why???

-John

I think I understand what Wes was driving at. For example, with an oil burning steam locomotive, the boiler can be totally filled up, while still maintaining full boiler pressure. Then at say, 11:55PM, the fire is shut off and all steam systems are shut off, i.e. "bottled up". The locomotive can then sit there "dead" for just over 24 hours, whereupon sometime AFTER midnight of the next day, the boiler still has about 75 to 100 psi plus a half glass of water; the fire can now be re-lit. The end result is, the boiler has been MORE THAN 24 HOURS with no fire, and credit can thus be taken for ONE DAY "out of service", and still comply with FRA requirements of a boiler wash every 30 days.

Hours don't count. Calendar days do. Under HotWater's scenario, 2 of the 3 calendar days he speaks of would be service days. The full calendar day it sat there with no fire would not be a service day.

Remember, it's calendar days, not 24 consecutive hours that count.

There have been a few out there who tried to convince FRA inspectors differently and ended up sadder but (hopefully) wiser.

What does the wording: " fire and pressure on the boiler" actually mean?

The boiler vent is open, the boiler gauge is resting on the peg.
The hour is 2355.

Later, tthe heel is rolled over, the boiler vent is closed and fresh fire is built on the coked coal.
It is 0010 hrs the third day after the aforementioned 2355 hrs.

Day "zero " ends at 2359 hrs, there is zero pressure on the gauge, the boiler' vent is open.

Day one and Day 2 , there is Zero pressure ( above 'atmosphere'), on the gauge .

Day 3 starts at 0001 hours.

Early AM, day 3 , the pressure gradually rises. Now, I have BOTH a fire AND pressure on the boiler, as reflected by the rising gauge indicting needle.

Can I be in "compliance ". with the wording ; AND , can I claim days 1 & 2 as ' out of service DAYS'?

Wes C.

Wes,

The issue is not "pressure in the boiler" but "fire in the firebox" at the same time there is pressure. Otherwise a "service day" would be charged every time a hydro test was performed. Having "pressure in the boiler" all by itself, is not an issue for an FRA service day. Having pressure plus a fire, is considered a service day. On the other hand, having no pressure in the boiler but fire in the firebox, sure seems pretty difficult to accomplish, and to what end anyway?

There is no such a thing as an "out of service day.". There never was. There WERE out of service months, but not days.

A fire is a fire. A banked fire is still a fire.