Steam & Excursion > 611 chase beefs

I had a nice day in spite of the weather linesiding the 611. Two beefs however. a group of at least 25 of us staked out a prime location in a cemetery up on a hill. Then a local in a mini van decided to park right next to the tracks...perhaps unaware. Fare enough. So I volunteered to go talk to him and asked him to move. No dice. He refused. Even after he saw everyone up on the hill. And he was parked on private property. He really wasn't even interested in what I had to say. Thanks though to all those who applauded me for trying! Second to the steam crew. Great job guys. But is it really necessary to wear those gross attention getting safety vests while on the train? On the ground, understand. But why on the loco or support car. They really stick out in the photos and video. Maybe it's a NS rule. But I don't recall seeing them on the Daylight a few years back. Photos to follow if any good when I get home. 

It's a federal rule/law to wear them.  As a small town Volunteer Fire Department Officer, I would much rather spend our money on other things, but the vests (ANSI Certified) are mandatory for anyone who works on or near roadways and railways.  As my guys have learned, its just easier to leave it on rather than keep taking them on and off, possibly leaving them behind. 

andersonb109 Wrote:
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But is
> it really necessary to wear those gross attention
> getting safety vests while on the train? On the
> ground, understand. But why on the loco or support
> car. They really stick out in the photos and
> video. Maybe it's a NS rule. But I don't recall
> seeing them on the Daylight a few years back.
> Photos to follow if any good when I get home. 

That is because we refuse to wear those damned things in the cab of 4449! I personally have explained to a number of RR managers that, "Those vests/jackets are made of polyester, and 4449 being an oil burner, do you have any idea what happens to polyester if it were to be subjected to a firebox flash-back?".  Besides, they are not required in the cab anyway. I never wore mine when in the cab of UP844 nor 3985 either.

agfd53 Wrote:
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> It's a federal rule/law to wear them.

Not on the railroad! They ARE to be worn by persons on the ground though.

  As a small
> town Volunteer Fire Department Officer, I would
> much rather spend our money on other things, but
> the vests (ANSI Certified) are mandatory for
> anyone who works on or near roadways and
> railways.  As my guys have learned, its just
> easier to leave it on rather than keep taking them
> on and off, possibly leaving them behind. 

Indeed. On Norfolk Southern safety vests are NOT required in the cab.

Chris Bost
Leesport, PA

You try taking them off and putting them on a dozen times a day,
and find someplace in the cab to keep then when you don't wear them,
where they won't melt or blow out or be in somebody's way.

611 has a relatively small cab.

andersonb109 Wrote:
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>"....................a group of
> at least 25 of us staked out a prime location in a
> cemetery up on a hill. Then a local in a mini van
> decided to park right next to the tracks...perhaps
> unaware. Fare enough. So I volunteered to go talk
> to him and asked him to move. No dice. He refused.
> Even after he saw everyone up on the hill. And he
> was parked on private property. He really wasn't
> even interested in what I had to say."

Out west he might find himself dodging flying rocks!

Old Bob out in Lost Wages

The "public" runs seem to attract more attention from casual people who simply do not understand the hobby of railfans. If they were more common perhaps they would attract less of the "once in a lifetime photo opportunity" type of person.

When 765 ran Elkhart to Bryan and back (and other runs) last year there were a lot of people lining the tracks. Places where on a "normal day" police (railroad or locals) would have run off anyone stopped in the more obvious locations (bridges, crossings) and nearby trespass locations (along the tracks) people were left to take their photos and video. (And put coins on the track and other trespass activities.

The worst example I can give is when I decided to catch SP4449 in Niles Michigan and didn't realize how many locals would show up. My first "big steam" chase. The train ran later than expected and I went to the Niles Amtrak station. Not only was the platform and every normal "legal" vantage point occupied but the Amtrak materials yard across from the station was lined with people. About the only way to get a good picture was to push to the front of the crowd or somehow get above the crowd. Hundreds of people who on a normal day would have been arrested for being where they were. The local police present and standing by hoping to keep people off of the rails and not worring about the other trespassers.

It is frustrating when one has marked off a "perfect spot" for a photo and someone else steps in. Sometimes one has to find a better perfect spot. One that others cannot intrude on. I was fortunate in my chase of 765 to pick less popular spots. Not all of my photos turned out perfect ... but I got a nice rollby on video with only a couple of people in the shot (across the tracks behind the train) and one of the best train photos I have taken (765 splitting cantilever signals that have now been removed).

I am sorry your education attempt of the local in a minivan failed. Better luck next time (or perhaps have more than one person approach the interloper).

BTW: My "best train photo ever" could be considered "ruined" by a crew member leaning out of the baggage car in hi-vis to wave. But I choose to focus on the positive ... and I appreciate the fact that the train was running on a public railroad to be photographed.

Here's the deal with vests... You're taking pictures of operations on a mainline in 2015, not 1955, it's just going to come with the territory. The alternative is visiting the engine in it's parking spot at the VMT.

Personally, I try to work the people in. Saves a lot of headache.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/15 17:17 by Defective_Detector.

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I don't mind people if I know who they are ...
And I am leery of taking pictures of other people's children. Too many wierdos in the world - I do not want to be labeled as one of them.

For special runs the people on the train (crew and passengers) expect some photography.
I have had some crew object to their photo being taken on regular runs. So I try to avoid people photos.
(One crew member asked me why I was photographing her at work ... I told her I was taking a video of her train. She was just in the way.)

Oh my, the first photo with the little girl wearing the  flip flops, posed intently in front of the locomotive with her doll baby is so....... sweet!

Sorry about the experience with the guy that wouldn't move. I'll bet he was a railfan and knew better but there seems to always be one in the crowd.

That reminds me of a story that Dick Yager (he posts here) told me once about a photo line on an excursion years ago. (I know, I've told it before.)
Anyway, the photo line was set up and this one guy comes along and decides to go out in front of everybody and consequently ruins the photo. So the guy supervising the photo line goes up to the guy and explains the situation. Well, the jerk wont budge, so just as the train fills guys veiw finder and he snaps the shutter, the supervisor, who was wearing a trench coat, pulls out one side of his trench coat and covers the guy's camera. And he exclaims to the guy: "If my people don't get their photos, you don't either!" My apologies to Dick Yager if I didn't get the story exactly as he told it.
Perhaps Dick can pipe in and tell us when and where this happened.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/15 20:21 by wabash2800.

Reference not wanting to take photos of people on a train or not,  I had a weird experience with that one. I took a vacation to the East by myself one year to visit some friends out there. Anyway, one of my venues was the Mount Washington Cog Rwy. As we were ascending the mountain I got up in the aisle and took a photo to get a photo of the interior of the car looking ahead with the locomotive and the people in the car. Well, this lady sitting in the front noticed I was taking the photo and got up, turned around, stood in the aisle, pulled up her blouse and stuck her tongue out at me. She was obviuosly drunk.  And believe me the heffer was nothing to look at. It ruined my trip up the mountain. Too bad they couldn't have dropped her off on the mountan and left her there.

I am a railfan but not a photographer.  I have ridden many steam excursions and watched from the train  when railfans have endangered many people on the roads as they recklessly  chased the trains . I understand railfans wanting to set up photo lines snd etc but face it people, there are people who are not railfans but are just there to see the steam engines out if curiousity and have as much right to park and stand where they want. Yes, they can be requested to move, but they are under no legal obligation to do so in most cases and dont understand the underlying fanaticism of the railfan photographers , nor should they have to.
C

Carol Voss
Bakersfield, CA

Thats right on, Carol.

As others have said I really hope that future trips include a photo runby organized as they were in the past with a proper photo line.

Photo runbys are getting more problematic as time goes on.  On high volume main lines the total amount of time the track occupancy takes usually consumes capacity that results in collateral freight train delay.  On secondary main lines where freight train delay is not an issue, safety remains the primary concern.  .    Where the train stops has to be planned carefully.  The areas around the traps that are opened must be manicured so that when the vestibule is opened and the steps put on the ground they are even.  There can be no brush or debris where the passengers walk to get to the photo line location.  Simply put, if  getting off, then back on the train is not as safe as if it were at a station platform, it should not be done.  Fact is, there are many people who enjoy these trips that have no business getting off the train except in optimal conditions.  The host railroad has a choice:  Prepare the area or prohibit photo runbys for passengers.  Random stops are now unacceptable risks.

As for the safety vests, I would hate to see Jack go up in flames, at least that kind of flame.

rdb

Just my $.02: if you are chasing/photographing a mainline steam excursion in 2015 and are going to be angsty about people in your photos, or yellow safety vests, you are going to be in for a long, frustrating day. People LOVE steam engines, rail fans or not. They are going to wander into your photos, most innocently, some inconsiderately. It's not fair, but all the bitching and moaning in the world won't change it. Look at it this way, anyone with a decent photo shop program and any iota of skill should be able to clone out any but the most egregious interlopers anyways. This wasn't an option only a few years ago, and it's helped me numerous times over the past few years. In most cases though, I try to recognize that people are part of the event, and work them in to some of my shots (see attached)

As for the vests, as another poster noted, it's 2015, not 1955. They are standard issue on mainline freight railroads. If you really want to recreate period shots from the 50s, there are plenty of charter operators out there, some which run big steam, that allow you to do this, without the safety vests and the crowds. NS allows these excursions to run on their mainline for promoting PR with the general public, and setting things up for the perfect photo op is WAY down their priority list. Just be thankful the NS allows these engines to run at all, and savor the experience. With Mr Moormans retirement and the the continual cost control pressures being placed on the class 1s, you never know what might happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/15 16:59 by PittsburghMike.

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RDB is totally correct!   Photo runbys are not just a random stop to let people pile off mob style.  Location is planned way ahead of the trip, scouted out and if traffic conditions permit the deed gets done.  Traffic on the railroads today, particularly the big ones  is dense and the RRs are committed to move it as best they can.
With 1522 we had a particular spot called Rook where we did ours on the Newburg trips, which was a good spot and the RR wasn't that busy.  Prior to leaving Newburg eastbound was another good spot.   We even did one in Lindenwood yards because someone made our trip run on time/ahead of schedule and we had time to do it.  Good times!
If you get butthurt easily and are chasing, then I feel for you.  For one thing, you probably don't have any skin in the game, can't control what other folks do and are at the mercy of road traffic conditions.  That's the railfanning world.   Twas ever thus.
One time Joe Collias and I chased SR 4501 east out of St. Louis to Huntingberg, IN.  We were at Princeton and were set up at a grade crossing with the L&N depot prominent in the view.  The train was right at the crossing and I took my shot, but heard an awful commotion next to me.   Some old guy in a pair of bib overalls came staggering out of the barber shop in back of us and right in front of Joe just as he was ready to shoot.  Joe hollered at him and wanted to sling him out of the way, but the shot was already gone.  I was driving, so I could laugh about it. 
I have seen what I call Jerks get pelted with rocks for walking out in front of a photo line  You just take your chances.
I don't chase any more because of all the idiots on the road.  Even back in the early '70s, I saw people chasing 4501 across IL on the two lane highway, 4 abreast trying to pace.   Insanity!

Insurance company requiremnts will not allow photo runbys

meixel Wrote:
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> As others have said I really hope that future
> trips include a photo runby organized as they were
> in the past with a proper photo line.

I read this thread with interest and can appreciate the reasonable views on both sides of the question.

That said, it brings to mind a saying which I think fits the whole circumstance, "your rights end where mine begin."

DaleR