Steam & Excursion > Train handling in an emergency..

[ Note:   I wanted to separate this thread from the long  discussions about 3751 and "undesired emergency application"....]

So, to continue Airbrake best practices...

How would movie actor, LarryDoyle, handle these three situations?  Why, in each case?

[ Operating on today's mainline tracks, using mix of Amtrak and Private Owner cars, either a diesel for HEP, or a Power Car, for the HEP.   If diesel, it is NOT in traction power mode,  I.e.: no traction generator field current...[
The scenario excursion llocomotive is a capable steamer, built around 1936, 6ET or 8ET, with pilot and trailer trucks...]

Scenario # 1.
How about an excursion train, of 20 cars or so, ( track speed above 50-per...) that has inadvertent train separation ---5 cars behind the last tender?
Any special operational considerations, Airbrake operation?

Scenario #2:
Same operational considerations....
The train separation occurs 5 cars ahead of the last coupler?
Any different train/brake handling?

Scenario #3:
Same operational considerations....
A train separation occurs, location in train is unknown to the engineer.
How does the engineer respond? How does s/he manipulate the loco brake valve?

I expect that there may well be many view points about this...
FIRE! AT WILL!

Wes C.

 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/15 13:04 by wcamp1472.

Not an engineer and I've not played one on TV nor stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night but...

I thought if you go into emergency and you don't know the cause you want to bail the independent and gun the throttle for a few seconds and then shut down with the idea that if the cause was train separation you want to put a little distance between front and rear sections just to prevent the front from stopping faster than the rear and having the rear collide with the front.

UH, what is the engineer doing with the brake valve with the train in emergency? Yelling at the
conductor to go plug the leak!!

Out

Wes,

Just my two cents:

In all three scenarios, the Engineer has no clue where the separation, if indeed a separation has even happened, back in the train. Thus, his actions should all be the same;

1) Bail off the independent brakes.

2) Reduce throttle, but not total shut off.

3) Place brake valve in emergency position.

4) Hang on, even after the locomotive stops, and wait for 15 to 30 seconds to be sure that you are not run-into by the train.

I agree, the engineer is not going to know right away whether or
not it is a separation, and if it is, he won't have any idea where in
the train it is.  I could be anything from a parted or burst air hose,
broken trainline pipe, or some passenger looking at the emergency
brake valve in a vestibule and saying to himself, "I wonder what
happens if I pull this?"

But until he knows for certain, the prudent engineer will respond as if
it IS a break-in-two.  If there actually is, so much the better if he does
the following.  If there isn't, there is no downside to doing the following. 

At any rate, using both hands, bail the independent NOW and vastly
reduce the throttle, shove the reverse gear forward as speed decreases,
Put the brake valve in emergency or even lap (this can be done
after the stop is made). At stop, shut the throttle, center the reverser,
open the cylinder cocks, and keep the independent bailed until you
are sure everything is stopped.   

By the time you've done some of that, the rear end crew will know whether
or not the train is in one piece.  After waiting enough time for the vent valves
on each car to reset, put the brake valve into running position.  If there
is a hole in a pipe or a busted hose or parted hoses, they will find it that
much easier by listening for the sound of rushing air. 

Oh, and if you are worried about old-time authenticity, whistle out a flag
in both dirfections.

Of course if your excursion train is being pulled by diesels and goes into emergency, your PCS will open, your engines will drop to idle and there isn't much you can do but bail off. Only after the PCS is recovered can you apply power again.
Realist is right on the money for the control of a steam engine, no surprise there...it's pretty much power braking to a stop keeping the train stretched.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/15 14:09 by Finderskeepers.

I thought there was a delay on PCS so you can keep pulling for a bit to gain separation in case of a break-in-two.  Or was that just a UP thing?

filmteknik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought there was a delay on PCS so you can keep
> pulling for a bit to gain separation in case of a
> break-in-two.  Or was that just a UP thing?

Correct. It depends on the railroad how much of a delay there is in the PCS action. But then, the original poster was talking about steam locomotives anyway, so it doesn't matter, as there is no PCS.

Well, if it a diesel, your PC will drop out. I always bailed the engine brakes off and started to reset the PC.  When we stopped the crew would go hunting. I would send the air back, right away and see if old Fred showed something. 

If its a steam engine, there is no PC so you would bail the engine brakes (don't know if that would bail the tenders but I think they are just like cars) and apply some power to keep the head end moving.

The name of the game is to keep the head end moving so the rear end won't catch up and put you in the ditch. You never know wwhat has happened back there but if you are in the ditch you most likley to feel something before the air goes in. When we had cabooses I would always call the Conductor and ask him to tell me when the hack came to a stop. In that way you might be able to see if they stopped before you did that would indicate you had parted ways.  

The other way was to look back if it was dark and see if there was a fire back there:)  You know the story about a new fireman who was always looking back, even going over to the hogheads side to check the train behind the power.  Well the hogger had had enough and told the guy to sit down. He told the Fireman, " Don't look back. Terrible things go on back there. We will know soon enough,"


Nudge

 

Clearing up a few things:

Tenders (and nowadays, most water cars) work with the independent brake.
IOW, when you bail the locomotive brakes, you are also bailing the tender
and the water car.  And the diesel if you have one and the air is MUed.
(The "ET" meant engine and tender, as in 6ET, 8ET.) There was also "LT",
which meant locomotive and tender. 

If there is a diesel right behind the tender or water car and the air is MU'd,
the brake valves in the cab of the diesel will be configured in trail position.
If there is no air MU, then there will be an engineer on the diesel to bail the
independent, otherwise there will be some interesting slack action every time
the engineer in the steam locomotive applies the train brakes.  

PCS delay.  Some railroads have a 15-20-second time delay programmed in
for when the brakes go into emergency from anything other than the engineer
dumping it himself.  What happens is if the air dumps while the units are in
power, the PCS won't open for 15 or 20 seconds, which lets the front
portion keep going to (hopefully) not get run into by the rear portion. 

In dynamic braking, the slack is already bunched, but if the air dumps and the
PC opens right away, if the train was in one piece and the engineer bails the
independent (which is almost instinctive)  the locomotives will run out and can
actually cause a break-in-two.  So, the same railroads with the 20-second delay
in power also have a delay in dynamic, but in this case, there is no time limit.
IOW, the dynamics will keep working, holding the slack in until the whole thing
comes to a stop, then the PCS opens.

Now, in the case of the units being in power when the action occurs, if the
engineer closes the throttle, that nullifies the delay and the PCS opens immediately.  
In dynamic braking, if the engineer closes that one, the PCS opens and the
d/b drops out immediately.  
 
 

We actually had a break in two down in TX on the BNSF EAS trip.   We had some of the bi level cars in the consist and at track speed they hit some choppy track and actually uncoupled by one coupler riding up over the other.   I wasn't lucky enough to be running on that lap, but Jeff did just what the three of us discussed, bail off the independent and reduce the throttle so the ass end didn't catch up with the head end.  That was scary. 
My mindset when running was to think of the whole train as one unit.  Others worried about how to run the steam engine, but I tried to picture what was happening back there when I did something.  If the unit breaks, then I don't want to meet the other portion under unpleasant circumstances.
We were on level track when that happened.  Had we been going upgrade, I would still bail the independent to keep from damaging the engine until I found out what happened.  Downhill, I would really want six degrees of separation.

What really happened. Due to rough track south of Forth Worth, the striker plate on one car ended up atop the plate of  an adjoining car. A stop was made at Cleburne, TX to separate the two cars and recouple to get the plates back where they belonged.. But, the pin did not drop on one of the two cars and no one on the ground caught it. Train leaves Cleburne and so far, so good. However, a few miles down the road the unsecured knuckle let go which in turn caused a train separation. I know as I was crossing between those cars and had just gotten inside dome car "Bay View" when the event took place. Talk about timing and a very lucky break for me! Retirement almost happened 12 years early!

Re: failed pin-drop

OMG !!

Crossing over, car-to-car--- then to have that HAPPEN

WOW   THAT's too close!! 
I never expected that kind of related experience.
Thanks for that...

Inquiring minds want to know...
How should that coupling have been properly made ? 
Was it simply a failure to stretch 'em?  Something else to have been checked?


Wes C.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/15 18:32 by wcamp1472.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re: failed pin-drop
>
> OMG !!
>
> Crossing over, car-to-car--- then to have that
> HAPPEN
>
> WOW   THAT's too close!! 
> I never expected that kind of related experience.
> Thanks for that...
>
> Inquiring minds want to know...
> How should that coupling have been properly made
> ? 
> Was it simply a failure to stretch 'em?
>  Something else to have been checked?

For what it's worth, Amtrak policy is to stretch them TWICE, i.e. couple up, then stretch 'em, that reverse direction and back into the train again, then STRETCH THEM AGAIN.  Seems to work for them.


> Wes C.
  

A few additional comments:

>In all three scenarios, the Engineer has no clue where the separation, if indeed a separation has even happened, back in the train. Thus, his actions should all be the same;

>1) Bail off the independent brakes.

>2) Reduce throttle, but not total shut off.

3) Place brake valve in emergency position.

4) Hang on, even after the locomotive stops, and wait for 15 to 30 seconds to be sure that you are not run-into by the train.

All correct, except that with diesels and 2), depending on the RR, your choices are limited to the PCS opening immediately or after a time delay. Some RRs keep 200 amps of dynamic braking after the PCS opens. I can also say that the combination of 1) and 4) in once instance resulted in the separation of the (diesel) locomotive from its train by several miles.

>After waiting enough time for the vent valves on each car to reset,

which typically takes approximately 90 seconds

>Tenders (and nowadays, most water cars) work with the independent brake. IOW, when you bail the locomotive brakes, you are also bailing the tender and the water car.  And the diesel if you have one and the air is MUed. (The "ET" meant engine and tender, as in 6ET, 8ET.) There was also "LT", which meant locomotive and tender.

Don't have an LT book, but this is true of of at least 5-ET and everything since.

>In dynamic braking, the slack is already bunched, but if the air dumps and the PC opens right away, if the train was in one piece and the engineer bails the independent (which is almost instinctive)  the locomotives will run out and can actually cause a break-in-two.

There has been a trend over the last couple of decades to keep a certain amount of DB working. Don't know how widespread this is.

Double stretching? Yes Atk does it. Any RR which doesn't regularly blow the dirt and dust out of the pin mechanisms of it's couplers has to do this (I've seen the SP do this but not Atk).

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>  All correct, except that with diesels and 2),
> depending on the RR, your choices are limited to
> the PCS opening immediately or after a time delay.
> Some RRs keep 200 amps of dynamic braking after
> the PCS opens.

One very large class 1 has all of it's db equipped locomotives
set up to maintain full dynamic braking capcity until the
train comes to a dead stop OR the engineer goes back to 
set-up or off.

200 amps ain't much. 

> Don't have an LT book, but this is true of of at
> least 5-ET and everything since.

Primarily used on old, small, switchers.

 

Pretty much I learned the same thing when stopping a steam locomotive after a UDE with the exception of leaving the throttle open as you bail her off, start dropping her down in the corner, and essentially let the engine drag em down to a stop. On a high drivered engine I can see why you would start notching the throttle down, but it was explained to me let hogs do what hogs do...let 'er dig till she stalls, then close the throttle and open the cylinder cocks. Handle the air as described.

That's OK as long as the pulling power of the locomotive doesn't exceed the braking power of the cars attached. The Admiral found that out the hard way.

As I was taught you go immediatly to full sanders, full power and let the brakes bring you to a stop, then shut throttle, center reverse,shut sanders,open cocks and hope you don't feel the hind end running into you. It's only happened to me once in all the years I've been in the right hand seat and it was a seperation between the 11th. and 12th. coaches of a 19 car long train. Gratefully by following the above the hind end section stopped a good 20 car lengths short of the head end.

  Ross Rowland

Especially in a steamer bailing off the independent is of real value, flat wheels are hard to fix.
Beyond that, yes there's a procedure but Wes' examples are worth consideration. Are you uphill
or downhill, is there enough braking in the separated cars to stop on their own or does inertia
take over. A buddy of mine, downhill in D2, had a rail come up and spear a car about fifteen
back. Train never did go into emergency and luckily he didn't throttle up to maintain speed.
There are times when experience and a look back are of real value.

Out