Steam & Excursion > Fire-up 700 for MAX Orange opening Sept. 12th

Since 4449 can't be fired up why not have 700 outside and fired up?

830-east Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since 4449 can't be fired up why not have 700
> outside and fired up?

What makes you think the 700 won't be fired-up?

They were talking about moving 197 outside.  I guess both could happen.

Brings up the perennial question.....what is wrong with the #700?  I hear rumors, but have never heard a plausible reason (I know she's been fired up and worked the Christmas lights show, but never on the mainline again?

Ed

Auburn_Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brings up the perennial question.....what is wrong
> with the #700?  I hear rumors, but have never
> heard a plausible reason (I know she's been fired
> up and worked the Christmas lights show, but never
> on the mainline again?
>
> Ed

The 700 is due her FRA mandated 15 year inspection, and they recently received a 30 day extension so that she can be fired-up and on display for the September event. After that, she MUST undergo the FRA complete boiler inspection, i.e. the ultra sound and physical inspection of the boiler sheets and subsequent recalculation of her FRA Form 4.

I am all for safety but I wonder in this day and age is it necesseary to go through ALL the labor intensive inspections ?  I am talking about items that can be done by  all of the fancy electronic  machines and computers we have now .  My guess is the equipment cost is over the top and it would be easier for me to roll a flue than try to get a computer to work out a program.  

Then again, maybe its to hard to get a computer to work inside a boiler at 250 PSI :) :)


Nudge

 

The subtle purpose for doing the inspections is fundamentally one of passing-on and acquiring the hands-on learning and doing.
There are a lot of advantages to actually using the tools, heavy equipment and perfecting the old ways of doing things.

I am totally in favor of the required tear downs and reInsertions.  There is, however,  a risk to ruining the front and rear tube sheets by continued rolling-in and removing the flues repeatedly.  But, then again, there's lots to learn by making and installing replacement tube sheets.

The teaching moments are where a lot of the muscle skills are formed.  Operating an air powered flue roller is way more art than muscle, but you still must be in good shape.  Flue rolling is about consistency and just enough tightness at the tube ends, but not so much that the wall gets too thin by over-rolling the flue into the sheet --- just the right touch is the secret.   You can't do the rolling while absorbed in a descriptive text ----- and rolling proficiency/consistency does NOT come from "book lahrnin'. "

And, yes the boiler inspection rules DO have provisions for utilizing new inspection and analysis Equipment as technology advances.
Stay tuned.

Wes C.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/15 20:28 by wcamp1472.

word today from PRPA is that the extension has not yet been received or acted upon.   the 700 will not be fired up without the extension.  a plan B is in place in case the extension is not received.   Arlen

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am all for safety but I wonder in this day and
> age is it necesseary to go through ALL the labor
> intensive inspections ?  I am talking about items
> that can be done by  all of the fancy electronic
>  machines and computers we have now .  My guess
> is the equipment cost is over the top and it would
> be easier for me to roll a flue than try to get a
> computer to work out a program.  
>
> Then again, maybe its to hard to get a computer to
> work inside a boiler at 250 PSI :) :)
>
>
> Nudge

Physical inspections by crews on the ground are a good
idea for any equipment that has the potential for going
boom or bust in the middle of operations somewhere far
away from help. My son is an airline captain, and they
do walk around inspections before every take off, or at
least taking over the equipment. One day he was doing
his inspection and a drop of hydraulic fluid landed in
his eye. Both plane and eye got first aide with no
lasting damage done. Now, if that drip had been missed,
we might have heard about it on the evening news.

Keep up the walk-arounds. It's not often that they pay
off, but they are low cost, low tech life savers.

John.

>
>  

Was there yesterday and talking to one of the fellows he related that 700 will not be used for the event and that the ON&R will be used but only for blowing the whistle using shop air. The other thing was that 700 would get an extension for the Christmas deal in the event that 4449 could not do the event. I know that this was one of the people who give info to the public but just passing along what I was told yesterday. Had a very nice time there this being my first trip there all answered my questions ran into a few that knew me from Train Mountain. Looking at there workplace and equipment shows how proud they are of it. The PA will be a nice addition to the fleet, I assume it will be used there as didn't ask.  Thanks to all for the nice tour and visit. Boyd in Chiloquin.

Physical inspections are done routinely, signed-off for on a daily basis and there are so many eyes on the engine that it's hard to miss ANYTHING.  I have seen such things as tender water supply (to the loco) inadvertently left closed, same for modern boiler checks --- left inadvertently closed.  The airline model for the daily checks is the pre-flight check list.  We religiously used those forms years ago on the High Iron Co. Trips.

All that being said, with boilers being tightly jacketed, and over 400 interior flues, the concern is the  careful inspections  surrounding the joints, seams, rivets and verifying the sound metallurgy of the steel ---- specifically, NO evidence of cracking around seams and rivets.  Also, an area of deep concern is the front knuckle of the crown sheet ------ where it joins the top of
the rear flue sheet.   Constant flexing there is a chronic problem.

Skilled inspectors have had broad experience ---- how they gonna get it, if the routine stuff is continuously postponed?

wes c



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/15 13:43 by wcamp1472.

The physical part of the work has to be done to get the stuff out of the way so you
can do the electronic/computer parts, such as the UT and the calculations based thereon.

Kind of difficult to shoot UT readings though jacket and lagging, or past tubes and flues. 

The Ultra-sound, steel boiler plate uniform thickness determination, is typically performed on the exterior of the shell--- once exposed.

If you have a small inspector, who knows what to look for, you need only remove sufficient flues and tubes necessary to gain full access to the entire shell interior [ observing safety steps needed for workers in confined spaces]

  I suspect that firebox thickness readings are more difficult to obtain, and may vary considerably.
Remember that Ultra-sound depends on the propagation of reflected waves for its measurements.  There must be a flaw, that reflects the sound waves, or simply the other side.  Hidden Crystalline flaws may be in the molecular structure, but Ultra-sound may not reflect ( so to speak..) such potential deflects.

Whatever relevant & useful NDT testing equipment the inspector chooses to take into the shell during inspection, all the better.

Because of the extended idle periods, intermittent excursion service is very hard on the boilers.
Also, equally as hard is week-end use, only....the deep  "thermal cycling" is strenuous on large boilers.
A small, external, heating plant, for keeping the boiler hot during idle periods, is always a good idea.

To me, the critical component is the firebox--- particularly the rear, lower corners, the 'knuckle' at the top/front of the crownsheet, strains building up in the siphons, if equipped, and  the throat sheet. Here's where a skilled boilermaker's judgment comes into play ---- years of experience is about the only way to qualify the sheets for continued service, or the needed replacements.

The sad saga of the PRR 1361 clearly shows the effects of wrong guesses, too much work on the wrong areas and $$$ millions spent where a fraction of that could have brought that machine up to very high safety standards.   It may eventually be repaired the correct way.   But what a waste it was to fabricate and install a whole new door sheet, only to have the rest of the firebox fail to meet the necessary standards.

A classic example of a "cluster think"....

OVER...

Wes C.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/15 18:44 by wcamp1472.

Thanks Wes. I know the ins and outs of inspections but was wondering if any "New" technology had helped.  
When we inspected the diesels, you would enter a problem and that is the last you heard. You would get some power where the reports were weeks old and never pulled. It was an exercise of futility.

I do know the forces acted on most of the complaints in the steam era, who didn't wanted to blown up either..

You want some good reading, find an old caboose inspection book. A Conductor would report a bad toilet and it was answered, "Well don't Use it." I will admit some were very funny going back and forth.


Nudge

Unless the 700 group has plans for a lot of profitable trips in the future it would be hard to justify the expense of the 1472 day inspection just to putter around locally a couple of times a year.
That was on the list of reasons the 1522 was retired.  High insurance, high cost of rolling stock, reduced operating opportunities and the need for some extensive boiler work.  Just not enough cubic dollars out there.

Frisco1522 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unless the 700 group has plans for a lot of
> profitable trips in the future it would be hard to
> justify the expense of the 1472 day inspection
> just to putter around locally a couple of times a
> year.
> That was on the list of reasons the 1522 was
> retired.  High insurance, high cost of rolling
> stock, reduced operating opportunities and the
> need for some extensive boiler work.  Just not
> enough cubic dollars out there.

Good point. To bad there could not be a trip in spring and a trip in fall for the 700 to stretch her legs to say maybe Spokane or Bend on a weekend.

Posted from iPhone

CPRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Frisco1522 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Unless the 700 group has plans for a lot of
> > profitable trips in the future it would be hard
> to
> > justify the expense of the 1472 day inspection
> > just to putter around locally a couple of times
> a
> > year.
> > That was on the list of reasons the 1522 was
> > retired.  High insurance, high cost of rolling
> > stock, reduced operating opportunities and the
> > need for some extensive boiler work.  Just not
> > enough cubic dollars out there.
>
> Good point. To bad there could not be a trip in
> spring and a trip in fall for the 700 to stretch
> her legs to say maybe Spokane or Bend on a
> weekend.

Except her FRA 15 year "clock" is now expired, thus she can't even be fired-up again, unless they receive that 30 day extension for the Portland MAX event, on September 12, 2015.

Just to set the record straight, Jack is right. We need the extension to fire up. The actual extension or waiver applied for is for the rest of 2015, so that we could be available for the Orange Line grand opening, annual ORHF Holiday Express if needed, and possibly available to help out BNSF at their annual big Christmas party in Vancouver. Then we go down in 2016 for our 15 year. That is the plan, but it is all up to the FRA to issue that extension and at this late date, we may well miss September 12 (and darn that date is also my birthday....please FRA give me a birthday present!)

As for our future, we were given a clean bill of health to run anywhere Amtrak could take us, last year. The problem this year was that the local railroads were very busy with handling revenue traffic.

Also, it is important that the 700 continue to be in running condition as far as ORHF is concerned, as one of the locomotives available to our most important annucal activity, Holiday Express. Due to the success of Holiday Express, ORHF is in excellent financial shape, pays its bills on time, and will soon be debt free! We all want the 4449, the 700, and eventually the 197 to be ready to steam up for events and activities such as Holiday Express. We are very fortunate to have the support of the CIty of Portland, the local community and the hundreds of wonderful volunteers at ORHF, Friends of the 4449, PRPA, Friends of the 197, PNW Chapter NRHS and all of the other organizations and individual contributors that have made ORHF and our fantastic facility ORHC what they are today.

Nuff said....Bottom line is, we plan to be around a while longer!

Steve Sedaker
VP, PRPA
Board Member, ORHF​​​​​​

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Ultra-sound, steel boiler plate uniform
> thickness determination, is typically performed on
> the exterior of the shell--- once exposed.
>
> If you have a small inspector, who knows what to
> look for, you need only remove sufficient flues
> and tubes necessary to gain full access to the
> entire shell interior [ observing safety steps
> needed for workers in confined spaces]
>
>   I suspect that firebox thickness readings are
> more difficult to obtain, and may vary
> considerably.
> Remember that Ultra-sound depends on the
> propagation of reflected waves for its
> measurements.  There must be a flaw, that
> reflects the sound waves, or simply the other
> side.  Hidden Crystalline flaws may be in the
> molecular structure, but Ultra-sound may not
> reflect ( so to speak..) such potential deflects.

In the context of part 230, the UT test is for thickness
only.  It won't find flaws in the steel unless it's a very
sophisticated machine operated by a highly trained
operator.  A good machine can show thickness of the
steel, the scale, and the paint, shown on a graph and
called out as such.  UT= Ultrasonic Thickness.

You may be thinking of another kind of unltrasound
tester used to inspect things like axles, crankpins, etc.
for cracks.  That uses an occilloscope, and will show
laps, cracks, etc.  But it takes a highly skilled operator
to tell the difference and know what is serious and what isn't.   


>
> Whatever relevant & useful NDT testing equipment
> the inspector chooses to take into the shell
> during inspection, all the better.
>
> Because of the extended idle periods, intermittent
> excursion service is very hard on the boilers.
> Also, equally as hard is week-end use, only....the
> deep  "thermal cycling" is strenuous on large
> boilers.
> A small, external, heating plant, for keeping the
> boiler hot during idle periods, is always a good
> idea.
>
> To me, the critical component is the firebox---
> particularly the rear, lower corners, the
> 'knuckle' at the top/front of the crownsheet,
> strains building up in the siphons, if equipped,
> and  the throat sheet. Here's where a skilled
> boilermaker's judgment comes into play ---- years
> of experience is about the only way to qualify the
> sheets for continued service, or the needed
> replacements.
>
> The sad saga of the PRR 1361 clearly shows the
> effects of wrong guesses, too much work on the
> wrong areas and $$$ millions spent where a
> fraction of that could have brought that machine
> up to very high safety standards.   It may
> eventually be repaired the correct way.   But
> what a waste it was to fabricate and install a
> whole new door sheet, only to have the rest of the
> firebox fail to meet the necessary standards.
>
> A classic example of a "cluster think"....
>
> OVER...
>
> Wes C.

Sedaker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just to set the record straight, Jack is right. We
> need the extension to fire up. The actual
> extension or waiver applied for is for the rest of
> 2015, so that we could be available for the Orange
> Line grand opening, annual ORHF Holiday Express if
> needed, and possibly available to help out BNSF at
> their annual big Christmas party in Vancouver.
> Then we go down in 2016 for our 15 year. That is
> the plan, but it is all up to the FRA to issue
> that extension and at this late date, we may well
> miss September 12 (and darn that date is also my
> birthday....please FRA give me a birthday
> present!)

>
> Steve Sedaker
> VP, PRPA
> Board Member, ORHF​​​​​​

Just my opinion but, I can't see the FRA providing an "extension" through the end of the year. One month, maybe, in order for the 700 to be fired-up for the Sept. 12th event, but through the month of December, I don't see THAT happening. I could be wrong, but,,,,,,,. Besides, you might just have more superheater units leaking for the September 12 fire-up anyway.