Steam & Excursion > "Southern Pacific" versus "Southern Pacific Lines"on steam

I have to admit I am a novice when it comes to Southern Pacific steam, I have noticed that some SP steam loco tenders said "Southern Pacific Lines" and others showed up as simply "Southern Pacific".  4-6-2 $2472 for example is lettered with the full "Southern Pacific Lines" name, can someone tell me in a nutshell when the SP used the "Lines" moniker versus when they used the simple "Southern Pacific"?

thanks,

Dan

I thinks "Lines" was dropped around 1946. At the same time the much larger lettering was used on the tenders.
SR

You are right, it was 1946...

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

Was there a time BEFORE "Lines"? I've never thought about it until now, but was Lines actually ADDED at some point? Perhaps when the SP name pushed out the CP name? That might give some meaning to why they used the plural "Lines".
SR

Or maybe I'm over thinking this... (No way!)

Yes, indeed, it was simply "Southern Pacific" before it became "Southern Pacific Lines" as we see here.

Martin

---

Thanks everyone, so, was it "Southern Pacific", then "Southern Pacific Lines", then back to "Southern Pacific?  What year(s) did it change, and did they finish out the steam era as "Southern Pacific"?  

Dan

Yes. And then SP 'till the end.
SR

LoggerHogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, indeed, it was simply "Southern Pacific"
> before it became "Southern Pacific Lines" as we
> see here.
>
> Martin

Ah, I kinda thought so.
Any idea when "Lines" was added?
SR

I'm guessing but did the "Lines" introduction coincide with the acquistion of the T&NO and/or the Cotton Belt?  Maybe they were doing what the UP did when they first acquired the Mopac and the Western Pacific.

thanks everyone,

Dan

This subject opens up a fairly interesting can of worms.
I'm assuming "Lines" (plural) was intended to illustrate SP's parental status in regards to all it's various entities.  But each of those entities seem to have reacted differently..
CP eventually disappeared all together, although small sub-lettering lingered on some cab-forwards for quite a while.
SSW seems to have never given up it's independent status.  I don't know if they ever lettered anything Southern Pacific.
T&NO used those reporting marks, but freely lettered everything Southern Pacific.  Maybe because the T&NO name only existed to make Texas happy? Was it ever a "real" RR?
NWP seemed to go all one way or the other-  things were either completely lettered NWP or not.  I'm guessing once ATSF had pulled out of the enterprise it slowly dawned on them they could drop the pretense?  Not sure.

All of this is simple observation on my part.  Scholarly knowledge is only implied and I, for one, would enjoy hearing from someone who knows what they're talking about.
SR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/15 06:46 by BoilingMan.

The Texas & New Orleans was a real railroad. It It was an amalgamation of all the little lines in Texas like the San Antonio and Aransas Pass and the Houston & Texas Central. Texas Law required that any railroad running in the state had to have a corporate headquaters in Texas. The T&NO had their own operating practices and designs. They were proud of their uniqueness and ingenuity. They were the red headed step child to the Pacific Lines. Also Their MK-5 2-8-2's were different in design than those in California. Their streamlined 4-6-2's used to pull the Sunbeam ( or Texas Daylight )were unique to them as well. Interesting note about the SA&AP is that is where the SP's Sunset Herald came from. 

Ricky 
Austin, Texas

Okay!  Someone who knows!
So here's my Q:  Many RR's are made up of smaller entities as you described.  But in this case, did these entities form a free standing TN&O that the SP then acquired whole, like the Cotton Belt, or did the SP acquire those entities from which SP itself formed the T&NO to satisfy Texas law? 
Do you understand how I mean this?  I understand about their unique Mt's & their own Sunbeam Pacific's, etc- I'm more asking about how the relationship of the SP and T&NO was formed.  And, I guess, how that relationship contrasted with the SP/SSW's.  Watching from afar, there seems to be a difference.
Thanks
SR 

The New York Central did the same thing but only lettered as such on its subsidiaries and it ended at some point in time. I am thinking the Pennsy did the same thing as did the Mopac. I'm sure there were other roads that did the same.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

I am not well versed on this, so am open to correction but the
reason for the Cotton Belt remaining separate was because of provisions of
the Pacific Railroad Act on traffic solicitation.  SP had to give preference on traffic
that moved to the UP over Ogden.  The SSW could solicit traffic moving via the
SP all the way to interchange with the SSW thus giving the SP the long haul.
zr190

> Any idea when "Lines" was added?

1917.

The March 16, 1917 Mojave Press (Mojave, Calif.) reported that the SP has adopted "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering on tenders and that locomotive numbers would no longer be on tenders but on locomotive cabs.

John Sweetser
 

Very cool info, from a rather unexpected source! Thanks
SR

Mojave was a railroad town with many railroad employees, so the local paper often printed railroad news items.

No doubt it was a VERY busy RR town at the time!
I am forever researching things and my "unexpected" comment was more about the fact that a Mojave news item from nearly 100yrs ago would survive.
When I was writing my AFT journal last year I got the biggest kick out of where the clues to various mysteries turned up. An example: I nailed down the exact location of the Sarasota FL display site from an radio station ad that was giving away some AFT tickets in a contest.
SR

John Sweetser ----
Did the Mojave Press microfilm most of their
past issues?  I know that the SF Cchronicle did --
all the way back to the late 1800s, so one can go
to a library that happens to have those riolls of
microfilm and read papers that are wekll over
125 years old.

Ricky/TexasEagle77 ---
Thank yo very much for that absolutekly fascinating
information about where the SP's famous setting-sun
herald came from!  This dyed-in the wool SP fan had
NO idea where that came from.  I wonder if anyone
anwyere knows the name of the man who designed that?
He certainly deserves to be honored!

Does anyone happen to have a photo of the
San Antonio & Aransas Pass's original herald ---
so we can compare it to the SP's famous setting-
sun herald?

Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:

> Does anyone happen to have a photo of the
> San Antonio & Aransas Pass's original herald ---
> so we can compare it to the SP's famous setting-
> sun herald?

http://www.txtransportationmuseum.org/history-rr-sa-aransas-pass.php
http://www.greatdecals.com/Austin/Set17.JPG