Steam & Excursion > Was coke ever used to help fire a steam engine?

Coke takes a very hot fire to get it started but then burns at a much higher temprature. I am guessing that the use of coke in a steam engine was never practicle because of the high temprature but thought I would ask.

I tried coke in my 1 1/2" scale steamer a few years back and that was not a great idea--damm near burnt through my grates.  Actually the grates were damaged enough in the short time I burned the coke that the grates ended up being replaced.

Marty Harrison
Knob Noster, MO

I knew a Pennsy Fireman when working the Farm Job out of Southport Yard (Elmira, NY) had a poor batch of coal. As they were switching the GE Foundry he loaded some coke onto the engine. He used the coke instead of coal and before it caught fire they lost steam. Shortly one pop lifted, then the second one and the injectors were busy trying to cool the boiler down.  Before long they had to run back to the Erie Passenger station to get water. He said when they tied up the engine was still very hot and he never did it again. 

There was a "Railroad Reading" in Trains at least 15 years ago about this very topic. It did not go well (I remember the writer talking about molten firebrick) and maybe the engine needed to be scrapped? Again, been a long time.

Maybe someone with the Trains digital collection could look up the issue?

Yes, my friend has an Ottoway 12" 4-4-0 and we used petroleum coke. Our buddy was using special grates that he had cast. Livesteam has used these on the 12". wag216

When I was in the Army in Germany in 63-64, my wife and I lived off post in a little three room apartment which had a little coal stove in one room.  I used to go buy a bag of coke and burn it in the stove.   It would run all night on just a few pieces and would keep the place warm as toast.  Most little apartments over there used that at the time.
I don't think I would try it in a steam locomotive.  I call BS on the Trains story too.  That's really far fetched.  Sometimes people have a perfect memory of stuff that never happened.

Whether the story is real/plausible or not, it definitely existed - I remember reading it in TRAINS as well. 10-15 years ago sounds about right as a ballpark.

welchblvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was a "Railroad Reading" in Trains at least
> 15 years ago about this very topic. It did not go
> well (I remember the writer talking about molten
> firebrick) and maybe the engine needed to be
> scrapped? Again, been a long time.
>
> Maybe someone with the Trains digital collection
> could look up the issue?
Molten firebrick? No such thing. Firebricks are used to line the ovens at the steel mills to hold the fire created by coal and coke to melt steel.

As a side note: When an oven at a steel mill that has be continually run with coal/coke, it can not be shut down. As those bricks cool down, they will crack and break up. Once you remove a fire from a coal/coke over, you have to tear it down and rebuild.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/15 14:15 by jst3751.

welchblvd Wrote:

> Maybe someone with the Trains digital collection
> could look up the issue?

For what it's worth...August 2001, page 63-64, "Don't Try This at Home" by Jack Riddle as told to C.H. Geletzky, Jr.

"When I looked inside the firebox, the firebrick was glowing white hot and molten brick was dripping onto the grates."

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> welchblvd Wrote:
>
> > Maybe someone with the Trains digital
> collection
> > could look up the issue?
>
> For what it's worth...August 2001, page 63-64,
> "Don't Try This at Home" by Jack Riddle as told to
> C.H. Geletzky, Jr.
>
> "When I looked inside the firebox, the firebrick
> was glowing white hot and molten brick was
> dripping onto the grates."

Interesting that there would be "firebrick" in a coal burner, that wasn't the arch brick.

I too remember reading that Trains article!

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> welchblvd Wrote:
>
> > Maybe someone with the Trains digital
> collection
> > could look up the issue?
>
> For what it's worth...August 2001, page 63-64,
> "Don't Try This at Home" by Jack Riddle as told to
> C.H. Geletzky, Jr.
>
> "When I looked inside the firebox, the firebrick
> was glowing white hot and molten brick was
> dripping onto the grates."

Still not possible. If that was the case, there he was mere seconds away from complete shell meltdown and colapse. What more likely he saw molten metal.

Guess things do not always go better with coke...

That story in Trains has to be absolutely true.  If it's coke...it's the real thing.

Not Coke, but if I recall from previous conversations here on Trainorders, I believe Doyle McCormick's locos run really well with lots of Pepsi. 

People can barely afford to lines up their nose, I can not imagine how many kilos of coke it would take to fire up the smallest locomotive......

Posted from iPhone

Someone on the "European" board might know if this really was standard practice, or just an old story that never got corrected:  I recall reading somewhere that back in the 19th Century, the London Underground railways used coke-fired steam locomotives before the system was electrified.  It this true, or am I just making it up from half-forgetten references?
 

About the melting firebrick....yes it is possible.   The temperature at which this occurs vary with the material the firebrick is made from.  Although extremely high temps are indeed required, a proper fuel fed by a forced draft will indeed create such temps.  There is a point at which the material becomes liquid and it will indeed rain/drip from the arch.  Given that the heat in a firebox is not localized but rather cast out on the whole surface area the brick will hold together as the heat increases to point where melting occurs.  Keep in mind that the particulates carried aloft by the forced draft will, in some, part adhere to the arch.  Many of the compounds contained in the particulates act as fluxes reducing the melting point of the firebrick (like antifreeze at high temps).  As a point of reference, there is a type of brick called "fusion cast" which is made by melting raw materials in arc furnaces.  Yes, this happens at temperatures much higher than probably seen in the coke burning event but fluxing materials will attack it none the less and erode even this material away during use.

 I don't run steam engines, I run glass furnaces.  I have seen the crown arch "rain" and it means you have a serious problem.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/15 19:33 by arcticrail.

A little late to the show but I run Australian Char in my live steamer. It is a type of petroleum coke, burns very hot, and completely smoke free, with only a small handful of ash at the end of the day. Amazing stuff, but costs $50 for a 50lb bag here. As long as you use 316 stainless steel for your grates you are fine. Mild steel will erode much quicker.

I will continue to use it as long as I can get it, and there is still a decent import supply left, a containerload was brought in from AU some time ago and has been sold off little by little in bags. AUSCHAR is no longer making the stuff so once existing supplies are gone, it's gone.
http://www.latrobevalleyexpress.com.au/story/2360743/auschars-last-hurrah/

You can blend it with regular coal as well to make it stretch and give you some sweet smelling smoke, and it will still give your fire quite a kick.

-M

Mike Massee
Tehachapi, CA
Photography, Railroading and more..

Harlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As long as you use 316
> stainless steel for your grates you are fine.
> Mild steel will erode much quicker.

Yes, one big drawback with coke is it is corrisve. Not in the way that acid is, but it will corrode steel over time. Trailers used to haul coke around Southern Calfornia have to change out the steel in the bottoms every couple years or bite bullet and pay for Stainless Steel bottoms and gates.