Steam & Excursion > SP 4460 before moving to the museum

After SP 4460 ran it's final trip in 1958 was it held in the yard it retired / made it's final trip in or was it taken to the museum in Missouri were it currently sits? I read that it sat outdoors for sometime before being moved under the shed. And for the record, aren't the wheel sets on the tender friction and not roller bearing?  

apollo17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After SP 4460 ran it's final trip in 1958 was it
> held in the yard it retired / made it's final trip
> in or was it taken to the museum in Missouri were
> it currently sits? I read that it sat outdoors for
> sometime before being moved under the shed. And
> for the record, aren't the wheel sets on the
> tender friction and not roller bearing?  

Concerning the SP and roller bearings, every single steam locomotive on the SP, except for the two GS-5 locomotives, had plain bearings. Many were grease cake lubricated, and some were pressure feed, oil with spring pad lubricators.

SP 4460 was moved to St. Louis in May 1959.  I took photos of it during a crew-change break in San Luis Obispo.  The engine messenger told me that it was going to museum in St. Louis, and that's the last I saw of it until 2007, when my wife and I stopped at the Museum of Transportation on our way from Southern California to New England.

Back in the 1970s and 80s, it used to bother me that SP 4449 got all the attention, and nobody mentioned the other survivor of this type.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/15 16:29 by DNRY122.

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---

DNRY122 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Back in the 1970s and 80s, it used to bother me
> that SP 4449 got all the attention, and nobody
> mentioned the other survivor of this type.

Well to be totally correct, the 4449 is NOT the same "type" as 4460. SP 4449 is a GS-4 with 80" diameter drivers and 300 psi working boiler pressure, while #4460 (a GS-6) is a "war baby", with specifications limited by the War Production Board. The SP GS-6 class were never skirted nor painted in Daylight colors either.

It would, though, be correct to term them "of the same class", the GS class, one being a GS-4, the other, a GS-6.  Hot Water is correct in that those war babies had different specs....but, then again, all the GSs, except the 4/5s, had their own individual specs unique to their class designation, whereas the 4/5s differed only in the fact that the 5s were equipped with roller bearings.  AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> apollo17 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > After SP 4460 ran it's final trip in 1958 was
> it
> > held in the yard it retired / made it's final
> trip
> > in or was it taken to the museum in Missouri
> were
> > it currently sits? I read that it sat outdoors
> for
> > sometime before being moved under the shed. And
> > for the record, aren't the wheel sets on the
> > tender friction and not roller bearing?  
>
> Concerning the SP and roller bearings, every
> single steam locomotive on the SP, except for the
> two GS-5 locomotives, had plain bearings. Many
> were grease cake lubricated, and some were
> pressure feed, oil with spring pad lubricators.

Jack, concerning the bearings, why did the SP have plain bearing on all their engines minus the the two gs5's? Even the cab forwards? All of them were oil burners too correct?

Posted from Android

MJV1988 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jack, concerning the bearings, why did the SP have
> plain bearing on all their engines minus the the
> two gs5's? Even the cab forwards? All of them were
> oil burners too correct?

Because the plain bearings worked very well for the needs & speeds of the SP. Since the SP was not really a "high speed" railroad, the grease block lubrication method worked well for them. Then the SP Mechanical Dept. invented (and patented) the system of pressure feed oil lubrication with babbitted crown bearings, and was even superior to the grease blocks. The SP never saw the need for the additional expense of the roller bearings.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MJV1988 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Jack, concerning the bearings, why did the SP
> have
> > plain bearing on all their engines minus the
> the
> > two gs5's? Even the cab forwards? All of them
> were
> > oil burners too correct?
>
> Because the plain bearings worked very well for
> the needs & speeds of the SP. Since the SP was not
> really a "high speed" railroad, the grease block
> lubrication method worked well for them. Then the
> SP Mechanical Dept. invented (and patented) the
> system of pressure feed oil lubrication with
> babbitted crown bearings, and was even superior to
> the grease blocks. The SP never saw the need for
> the additional expense of the roller bearings.

So I'm assuming the 4460 has the pressure feed oil lubrication system. If that's the case, what would need to be done to the tender wheel sets to get them moveable if the tender and engine were to be towed out from under that shed at some point in the future...hypathetically speaking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/15 07:51 by apollo17.

apollo17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So I'm assuming the 4460 has the pressure feed oil
> lubrication system. If that's the case, what
> would need to be done to the tender wheel sets to
> get them moveable if the tender and engine were to
> be towed out from under that shed at some point in
> the future...hypathetically speaking.

Depending how far she is to be "moved", simply check and make sure that all journal cellars on the whole locomotive have proper oil levels, and good cotton waste.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> apollo17 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So I'm assuming the 4460 has the pressure feed
> oil
> > lubrication system. If that's the case, what
> > would need to be done to the tender wheel sets
> to
> > get them moveable if the tender and engine were
> to
> > be towed out from under that shed at some point
> in
> > the future...hypathetically speaking.
>
> Depending how far she is to be "moved", simply
> check and make sure that all journal cellars on
> the whole locomotive have proper oil levels, and
> good cotton waste.

I know!!!  I saw the answer on a recent video!!!!

First, put out a press release.
Walk and measure the entire route for clearances.
Gather up 10 admiring helpers.
Buy new hats, vests, gloves, etc.
Put out another press release.
Surround the area with orange cones and fence.
Take the rods off.
Wipe them clean on both sides.
Stare at everything approvingly.
Put up some signs and banners.
Find some "special" lubricant.
Put the rods back on.
Get the parts mixed up.
Take them off again.
Drain everything with oil in it. Check with manufacturers for advice.
Ignore everything they tell you.
Contact the bearing and lubricator manufacturer.
Ignore everything they tell you.
Put out a press release.
Suck up to foamzine editors.
Find 2 SD70Ms.
Put out a press release.
Hook air to the whistle and bell.
Make certain therte are "X"s in the train indicator boards.
Put up fresh, clean, white flags.
Make class light lenses show green, contradicting the "X" and the white flags.
Get 4 passenger cars and 4 flatcars, for brakes.
Replace rear coupler and draft gear in the tender.
Couple to the 4460.
Find there are chocks welded to the rail that you didn't see before.
Call the whole thing off for the day.
Cut chocks off during the dead of night.
Put out a press release.
Wash and polish truck.
Wait until midnight.
Call the press and video people.
Issue new gloves, vests, hard hats, flashlights.
Couple up and start to move it.
Call relief crew for the diesels because the original crews have hogged.
Move it, after blowing the whistle, and ringing the bell.
Move at not to exceed .000001 mph.
Stop every 6 inches to inspect.
Invite admirers to ride on top of the tender.
Park your hiney on the engineers seat and lean WAY out.
Lay on the whistle and bell.
Put it all on video for sale later.
Go on the speaking circuit, claim no one else on the planet
could have done it.

Piece of cake!!
 



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/15 08:23 by Realist.

Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > apollo17 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > So I'm assuming the 4460 has the pressure
> feed
> > oil
> > > lubrication system. If that's the case, what
> > > would need to be done to the tender wheel
> sets
> > to
> > > get them moveable if the tender and engine
> were
> > to
> > > be towed out from under that shed at some
> point
> > in
> > > the future...hypathetically speaking.
> >
> > Depending how far she is to be "moved", simply
> > check and make sure that all journal cellars on
> > the whole locomotive have proper oil levels,
> and
> > good cotton waste.
>
> I know!!!  I saw the answer on a recent
> video!!!!
>
> First, put out a press release.
> Walk and measure the entire route for clearances.
> Gather up 10 admiring helpers.
> Buy new hats, vests, gloves, etc.
> Put out another press release.
> Surround the area with orange cones and fence.
> Take the rods off.
> Wipe them clean on both sides.
> Stare at everything approvingly.
> Put up some signs and banners.
> Find some "special" lubricant.
> Put the rods back on.
> Take them off again.
> Drain everything with oil in it.
> Put out a press release.
> Find 2 SD70Ms
> Put out a press release.
> Hook air to the whistle and bell.
> Couple to the 4460.
> Find there are chocks welded to the rail that you
> didn't see before.
> Call the whole thing off for the day.
> Put out a press release.
> Wait until midnight.
> Call the press and video people.
> Issue new gloves, vests, hard hats,
> Couple up and start to move it.
> Call relief crew for the diesels because the
> originals have hogged.
> Move it, after blowing the whistle, at .000001
> mph.
> Stop every 6 inches to inspect.
> Invite admirers to sit on top of the tender.
> Park your hiney on the engineers seat and lean WAY
> out.
> Put it all on video for sale later.
>
> Piece of cake!!
>  

Dang straight!!!! :-)

Posted from iPhone

I can answer that one.

An SP mechanical department officer held the patents on the oil
lube systems SP adopted as standard.

Which means he got royalties on each one made.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/15 11:26 by Realist.

Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can answer that one.
>
> An SP mechanical department officer held the
> patents on the oil
> lube systems SP adopted as standard.
>
> Which means he got royalties on each one made.

Correct. Back then, the babbitted crown bearing process was called "Sadco", and long after the steam days, that company name is now known as "Magnus Metals", who still produce, and recycle, the support bearings for all DC locomotive traction motors.

Does the 4449 still have the pressure feed babbited crown bearings? Or has it been converted to rollers since it was restored back in the 70's?

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/15 13:10 by MJV1988.

Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know!!!  I saw the answer on a recent
> video!!!!
>
> First, put out a press release.
> Walk and measure the entire route for clearances.
> Gather up 10 admiring helpers.
> Buy new hats, vests, gloves, etc.
> Put out another press release.
> Surround the area with orange cones and fence.
> Take the rods off.
> Wipe them clean on both sides.
> Stare at everything approvingly.
> Put up some signs and banners.
> Find some "special" lubricant.
> Put the rods back on.
> Take them off again.
> Drain everything with oil in it.ufacturers for
> advice.
> Ignore everything they tell you.
> Contact the bearing and lubricator man
> Put out a press release.
> Find 2 SD70Ms.
> Put out a press release.
> Hook air to the whistle and bell.
> Make certain therte are "X"s in the train
> indicator boards.
> Put up fresh, clean, white flags.
> Make class light lenses show green.
> Get 4 passenger cars and 4 flatcars, for brakes.
> Replace rear coupler and draft gear in the
> tender.
> Couple to the 4460.
> Find there are chocks welded to the rail that you
> didn't see before.
> Call the whole thing off for the day.
> Cut chocks off during the night.
> Put out a press release.
> Wait until midnight.
> Call the press and video people.
> Issue new gloves, vests, hard hats,
> Couple up and start to move it.
> Call relief crew for the diesels because the
> originals have hogged.
> Move it, after blowing the whistle, and ringing
> the bell.
> Move at not to exceed .000001 mph.
> Stop every 6 inches to inspect.
> Invite admirers to sit on top of the tender.
> Park your hiney on the engineers seat and lean WAY
> out.
> Lay on the whistle and bell.
> Put it all on video for sale later.
> Go on the speaking circuit, claim no one else on
> the planet
> could have done it.
>
> Piece of cake!!


That was the funniest thing I have read in years!!!   Ahh he's a genius.

MJV1988 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does the 4449 still have the pressure fed crown
> bearings? Or has it been converted to rollers
> since it was restored back in the 70's?

The four main driver axles are still the very successful pressure fed, oil lubricated babbitted crown bearings. All the other axles, from the engine truck through the tender and auxiliary water tender have been converted to cartridge type roller bearings.

It's possible that in the '70's and '80's, the reason that 4449 got all the attention is because she was RUNNING, not on display in a museum.  You know, short trips like the American Freedom Train, the Amtrak sponsored return to Oregon, the first California Railfair, World's Fair New Orleans, Tough Guys trip, LAUPT 50th Anniversary.

Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > apollo17 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > So I'm assuming the 4460 has the pressure
> feed
> > oil
> > > lubrication system. If that's the case, what
> > > would need to be done to the tender wheel
> sets
> > to
> > > get them moveable if the tender and engine
> were
> > to
> > > be towed out from under that shed at some
> point
> > in
> > > the future...hypathetically speaking.
> >
> > Depending how far she is to be "moved", simply
> > check and make sure that all journal cellars on
> > the whole locomotive have proper oil levels,
> and
> > good cotton waste.
>
> I know!!!  I saw the answer on a recent
> video!!!!
>
> First, put out a press release.
> Walk and measure the entire route for clearances.
> Gather up 10 admiring helpers.
> Buy new hats, vests, gloves, etc.
> Put out another press release.
> Surround the area with orange cones and fence.
> Take the rods off.
> Wipe them clean on both sides.
> Stare at everything approvingly.
> Put up some signs and banners.
> Find some "special" lubricant.
> Put the rods back on.
> Take them off again.
> Drain everything with oil in it.ufacturers for
> advice.
> Ignore everything they tell you.
> Contact the bearing and lubricator man
> Put out a press release.
> Find 2 SD70Ms.
> Put out a press release.
> Hook air to the whistle and bell.
> Make certain therte are "X"s in the train
> indicator boards.
> Put up fresh, clean, white flags.
> Make class light lenses show green.
> Get 4 passenger cars and 4 flatcars, for brakes.
> Replace rear coupler and draft gear in the
> tender.
> Couple to the 4460.
> Find there are chocks welded to the rail that you
> didn't see before.
> Call the whole thing off for the day.
> Cut chocks off during the night.
> Put out a press release.
> Wait until midnight.
> Call the press and video people.
> Issue new gloves, vests, hard hats,
> Couple up and start to move it.
> Call relief crew for the diesels because the
> originals have hogged.
> Move it, after blowing the whistle, and ringing
> the bell.
> Move at not to exceed .000001 mph.
> Stop every 6 inches to inspect.
> Invite admirers to sit on top of the tender.
> Park your hiney on the engineers seat and lean WAY
> out.
> Lay on the whistle and bell.
> Put it all on video for sale later.
> Go on the speaking circuit, claim no one else on
> the planet
> could have done it.
>
> Piece of cake!!
>  

Hmmmmmm! If that's all there is to it, I know I can do that! Shouldn't take long at all. OH WAIT! Didn't some other guy do this awhile back? 

That's a good one Realist! I like it. Smiling.

Agree - funny.  The sad part, though, is all the people that think the guy is a steam expert.

Hot air expert.