Steam & Excursion > 611 vs 844 A Restoration Time-line

A fan below has asked an honest and fair question.  [paraphrased] Can a professional on the board please give an accurate estimated time line for the completion of 844?

A few threads ago I issued a challenge to go compare the restoration of the 611 with that of the 844.  having a few spare minutes on my hands, I have compiled the following time line that is "mostly" accurate and I understand that a few of the items below may be off by a few days and that a few of the restoration facts may be off by a little.  None the less, here is a play by play, apples to apples, fair is fair comparison of the restoration of the 611 vs the 844

• 611 was restored by a group of people who had extensive experience in A.) Steam locomotive restoration, B.) The 611 and 1218, C.) a variety of large steam power all over the USA and D.) had a talented group of employees who had done the same.  Not to mention E.) have done it so many times that they knew what mistakes to NOT make.
• 844 on the other hand is being handled by a group of employees who have A.) never been involved in a major steam restoration project in the past. B.) have very little if any steam railroading experience C.) have mostly been boomers with short stints with steam. D.) some of whom have never been a leader of an organization and not to mention E.) have and are making all of the mistakes that a group with experience would never make (i.e, announcing a major debut before the locomotive has even turned a wheel, just to name one.)
• 611 did not announce a trip or an event until after the steam trials were finished.  611 has (as far as I can see) not missed a single date or commitment nor has it had a significant road failure.
• 844 on the other hand has announced no less than three significant events and so far has missed two of the three.  My numbers could be off and I am sure I will stand corrected on that point.  None the less, the most recent would be CWS in Omaha which, at this stage, is a missed event.
• 611 was undergoing Hydro testing (without FRA) in what appears to be February of 2015.  Based on Google searches with the help of YouTube, it appears that 611 had a successful FRA Hydro on or about February 20, 2015.   Having chatted with one of the professionals on the team, I have been told that it took a good two, almost three weeks to get 611 to a good tight hydro.     No events for 611 have been announced as of February 20, 2015 (as far as I can see)
• 844 on the other hand has yet to pass an FRA Hydro (as far as any of us can see) and yet, it has a firm date for debut.  So firm is this date for Debut that UP has a trivia post on Facebook asking viewers about the famed debut date.   
• 611 did not have every ounce of piping replaced, it did not get a new chrome plated floor, throttle handle, reverser handle, all new jacket, a new fire pan (or grates) all new boiler studs, all new wiring.  611 had little if any running gear work done and some of that work was deferred until spring of 2016 (front truck work).  611 did not get new running boards, all new valves, extensive turret work, new boiler braces and as far as I can tell, the tubes that were ordered and delivered fit the first time.  
• 844 on the other hand has had all of the above items removed, replaced or changed as noted in what 611 did NOT get or have done. Not to mention the tube issue of a few months ago.   This brings me to the next significant time line issue; when is it going to be done?
• 611 had a larger more qualified crew and yet, from February 20, 2015 to the first steam tests and what appear to be movements of the locomotive under her own power, over 70 days had gone by.  It appears that steam trials at Spencer started sometime around May 5, 2015 with actual road tests on May 20-21 2015 with an actual event on June 5th 2015.   I also gather that a few other road tests were performed between May 20 and June 5, 2015.  Lets be realistic;  It took from February 20, 2015 to June 5th 2015 to actually have the 611 in full operation.  That was about 106 days total (I could be wrong on counting the days, please correct me).  
• I and others have long contended that 844 is 120 days from Hydro to First Steam Test.  Correct me if I am wrong, the official FRA Hydro is still pending?  If that is true and comparing 844 to the 611, the first steam test would be nothing short of something like September 21, 2016 (I could be wrong please correct my math).  Keeping in mind also, 844 is getting 3-4 times the amount of work that 611 had done.  844 has a smaller less experienced crew.  844 still has running gear and tender work to be done as well electrical work and so far, with the running record of the current crew, the probability of the locomotive making steam tests as flawlessly as the 611 is limited, at best.  611 had a crew who knew (and know) her far better than those who are working on 844 have know or have known 844 (considering that a few of the 844 crew have never even been with her on a trip (I could be wrong on that detail, correct me please.)
• If it took a crew of more qualified people 105 days or more with less than half the work that 844 has left to do......how can any reasonable person think that 844 has a half a chance of successfully running for CFD?   

Not being a hater or being a rock tosser.  I am simply answering what was and is a fair and honest question.  What is the reasonable time line for seeing 844 on the road?  From date of successful Hydro to steam testing is between 105 days (what the 611 guys did) and nothing short of 120 days....apples to apples, fair is fair....experience vs less experienced.  I have faith too.  I just think that comparing two apples is a fair undertaking.

 

I dont think 844 will run at all this year. In the next couple of weeks they will "find" some issue. Probably something WRRC and the old crew did to it! that will keep it from running until next summer!

How long did it take to get 611 going from the time they hauled it out of Roanoke until it was making test runs?

How long had it been sitting?

Wonder what the final total cost was?

844 was in service when they started this. And it had had a substantial amount of work done on the early 2000s.

How much of the work done/being done on 844 was actually necessary?

It's been nearly 35 months since it last ran, and it's had a full-time, paid crew working on it that has had no other distractions or interruptions, except for the year it took to move 4014.

Wonder how much this will end up costing?

Steve Lee and I had a long office chat the other day. In 2005 when 844 was being finished it was believed at the boiler work would last 20 to 25 years. 15 years ago, Steve reminded me that his heart valves had about a ten year life expectancy. Ten years ago we all thought Steve would need a 1472 day inspection long before 844 would. Steve has 15 years on his last 1472, 844 only got ten. Who saw that coming? Glad we still have a healthy Steve. We sure love him!!!

Posted from Android

I actually thought about and studied all of the questions asked by Realist. I kept barfing in my mouth so I had to stop thinking about the answers. Now I have heart burn and can't sleep.

Posted from Android

WRRC Wrote:
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> Steve Lee and I had a long office chat the other
> day. In 2005 when 844 was being finished it was
> believed at the boiler work would last 20 to 25
> years. 15 years ago, Steve reminded me that his
> heart valves had about a ten year life expectancy.
> Ten years ago we all thought Steve would need a
> 1472 day inspection long before 844 would. Steve
> has 15 years on his last 1472, 844 only got ten.
> Who saw that coming? Glad we still have a healthy
> Steve. We sure love him!!!
>
> Posted from Android
Did he get a Bovine valve replacement? My cousin got one. It was still kind of experimental 10-15 years ago but my cousin is doing very well with it. Looks like a deal where there expectation was low. I hope.

My wife just had an aortic valve replacement in April.  They used the mechanical valve in her because they said at age 55, it should last the rest of her life.  They said the non-mechanical one might have needed to be replaced if she lives a good long life.

Thank you WRRC, your analysis is absolutely convincing and, in its way, devastating. I've seen many muddle headed operations in my time, but this mess in WY may top them all. I wonder who's signing the pay checks? For me personally, I've been Wyoming "dreamin" for months now. No more. Guess I'll head up to Montana and watch some freights. d

Steve told me the other day that he has mechanical valves.  However, he was given the option of having chrome plated and newly jacketed valves as a opposed to stock out of the box.  he chose the stock out of the box valves and in looking back, he said  "Sure glad they didn't install the chrome plated and new jacket valves.....all that $%^&* didn't seem to make the 844 run any  better or last any longer....I'll take out of the box any day."    Sometimes Steve tells it like it is!!!!

Steve had his oil (blood test) checked the other day.  He told me everything looks good.  I know he did other testing earlier in the year (which he hates).  His wife is a nurse and many of you may not be aware, Steve Lee volunteers at the hospital.  He works with patients that are either getting ready for or who have just had heart surgery.   He also visits with people who ask to see him when he is on the road....in the hospital or not.   Steve understands something that many of us never have.   If you surround yourself with great people, you can do almost anything.   If you become or are very self centered and ego centric, it is hard to do anything.....no matter how great the people are that may be near you.   

Indeed, Steve has some who love him, some who dislike him.  He is a very bold, honest, upfront, no BS kind of guy.  He gets very, very agitated when you try to snow ball him.  Tell him the truth, be truthful and do the job you were asked to do.   It is an honor to work with Steve Lee the way we get to.

Speaking of (last point).  As contractors in the steam industry, believe it or not....99.9% of us all get along with each other.  It is true that we may not always see eye to eye on issues....that is normal....but, we all sit down at dinner together, we strive to hash things out, we strive to not bad mouth each other, we strive to see the others side of things.  I chat with my competitors often.  I am aware of the projects they do.  I strive to make sure that we give credit to all of the great work we see out there.  Steve Lee asked me the other day;  "How many people in the steam industry run to UP for advice or mentoring on steam and how many industry buddies does UP really have right now?"    Interesting and honest question, Steve.  I do not know.

Steve still gets a lot of calls...."Hey Steve, what about this or that or bla bla bla...."

 

Very good summation John.  No rock throwing, just cold hard facts.  I know some people who were doing the 611 rebuild and the difference between it and 844 is night and day.
As you mentioned, every inch of piping didn't need to be replaced.  AFAIK it has the original cab floor, jacket,running boards and while it does have a chrome throttle and reverse lever, in all fairness it had those before.  Only visual thing I see that has been changed is the lettering under the cab windows.  She performs great, sounds great and runs unassisted on most trips.
I became alarmed early on in the UP case.  It seems like everything the old successful crew had done was scrapped, disrespected or otherwise disposed of. The people who knew the engine and what knew what they were doing were driven off.  The shop was disemboweled due to negligence, tooling and paperwork dumped and trying to make a ghetto cruiser out of 844 with the whitewalls, chrome/stainless gew-gaws and irrelevant work being done.  Then the tinkering to quiet the rod noise, incidents on the road, eating too many crews when on the road and wrecking the good relations the old gang had with operating folks around the system.
3985 was treated like Typhoid Mary.  He was handed an engine that needed a minimum of work (by a good crew) and relegated her to the roundhouse to do penance.  All the while 844 was running and slowly consuming herself from neglect of accepted maintenance standards, but by God she was shiny.  Then came the expensive extraction of 4014 with all the fanfare from the foamers and hero worshiping magazines.  Glory Halleluya!  A Big Boy! A Big Boy!
I kept quiet on TO for over a year, but had to start pointing out things that I didn't understand.  I'm no steam expert, but even with my experience I have done a lot of facepalms and head shaking.  As I said in another post, the US fought and won WWII in the time 844 has been in overhaul with no guarantee of running in the immediate future.  Wonder how long it took American to build her?

Spent some time on Google images last night looking for 611 Restoration photos.  A few additional observations:

• It looks like the 611 cab remained in place?
• It looks like the grate bearers and ash pan remained in place....mostly.
• It looks like the 611 tender got some work....just not extensive
• It looks like 611 got a lot of bondo and "historic fabric" repaired.
• It looks like 611 got new cylinder jackets?
• It does not appear that the boiler of 611 was painted on the outside...I could be wrong?
• First fire test for 611 appears to have been on March 30th plus or minus which would have been about 40-45 days after the FRA Hydro.  Then it took another another 40-45 days to be ready for trial moves at Spencer.  Still all told, 105 (+/-) days from FRA Hydro to steam trials at Spencer.  
• 611 got a full paint job, from what I see.  (still took about two weeks to paint...or more?)
• I count no less than 8 qualified contractors and past crew members that worked on the 611?  I could be wrong.   None the less, crew size was bigger on 611.  I also note that the contractors who worked on 611 had "other projects" going as well?  I could be wrong.

IMO, the 611 was an actual restoration, whereas 844 was a simple
repair that morphed into a tool to bash previous crew, spend huge
amounts of money and time, and look important while exhibiting
abysmal ignorance.

611 needed a new Form 4 and the accompanying 1,472 SD inspection
and full UT.   As has been pointed out, contractors and people who had
worked on the first resto and who knew the locomotive were brought in,
the loco was examined, a prioritized task list was formulated, work was
organized, materials were purchased, and everything went pretty much
as one would expect from seasoned pros.  IIRC, it was about 1 year from
dead to running.  8 good people were enough to accomplish all that,
apparently.

844 needed the boiler cleaned out of the accumulation of mud and scale
that got there after 2 years of failed water treatment experiments accompanied
by failure to blow down or wash the boiler.  In 2013, the locomotive still had
6 years left before coming due for a 1,472 SD, Form 4 and UT.  Even now, it
still has 3 years left.

As an aside, 3985 still had 3 years left to run in 2011 before coming due,
and was virtually ready to go when it was summarily parked and hasn't
run since, for ever-changing "reasons".  AKA, excuses.   

Back to 844.  In an ongoing effort to smear the previous generations of
crews that took care of this locomotive for 70+ years as well as to divert
attention from the cause of the boiler being packed with mud and scale,
suddenly the repair turned into a "restoration" and full 1,472 SD/Form 4
that involved replacing known good parts and materials, tons of cosmetic
work, much trial and error (mostly error), make-work, busy work,
questionable decision making, variance from long-established codes and
practices, 2 complete personnel turnovers (eliminating all remaining
experienced people was apparently first priority).

The crew is about the same size as the crew that worked on 611; if you
count the contractors (welders, insulators, etc), the number of people
involved on the 844 exceeded that of 611.

Let's not leave out the traveling snake oil show and FB that expresses
outrage at the actions of previous crew, designers, and builders and
exhibits junk parts and photos from who knows where or what engine
to "prove" the point.

And the unending series of pronouncements about when it will be ready
to run, yet it hasn't made one yet.  If I count correctly, no less than 8
different dates have been set for 844's return, not one of which has been
met.  There have been 3 or 4 for this year alone, none of which will be
met. 

The single committment that has been made and kept was the one in 2011
wherein the DL said 3985 would never run again as long as he is there.

The point is that it has been almost 3 years and yet 844 is still in a thousand
pieces and months away from even being able to hold water much less run.

During those 3 years, a number of other locomotives, none of which has the
support and resources of a class 1 behind it, have come due for 1,472's,
the work has been completed, and the locomotives are already back on the
road.  Usually with heavy or complete reliance on volunteers.
 
One project had a goal:  Bring back 611.  It achieved that goal.  The other
also had a goal:  To denigrate every thing and every person involved
with 844 from the 1940s until 2011.

 

Yah but the 611 guys didn't try to fix the roof, that totally explains the delay.

Out

WRRC Wrote:
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• 611 had a larger more qualified crew and yet, from February 20, 2015 to the first steam tests
  > and what appear to be movements of the locomotive under her own power, over 70 days had gone by.
  >  It appears that steam trials at Spencer started sometime around May 5, 2015 with actual road tests
  > on May 20-21 2015 with an actual event on June 5th 2015.

A minor correction: the locomotive was operated around the museum at Spencer Memorial Day weekend (May 23-25) and returned to Roanoke on May 31. I am not aware of any significant work done after the May 21 test run to Greensboro.

In 1982, 611 was steam-tested on July 5, and had its first test run on August 15 (41 days if my math is correct).

In 1987, N&W 1218 was steam-tested on January 15, and had its first test run on March 25 (69 days).

---

Maybe (probably) you know, Mr. Craft:

How long did it take from arrival at Spencer to Departure under steam for 611?

I'm betting less than the 35 months 844 has been out of service.,

Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe (probably) you know, Mr. Craft:
>
> How long did it take from arrival at Spencer to
> Departure under steam for 611?
>
> I'm betting less than the 35 months 844 has been
> out of service.,

12 months.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/16 12:03 by typebangin.

Thank you for the correction, Mr. Craft. Most of my dates are video post dates which are not always accurate.

I would note, based on your post with days between events, you said that the dates are from STEAM TEST to operation. NOT, Hydro to operation, correct? This means that even your dates would suggest a reasonable time line from Hydro to steam test of about 100 days or more. Interesting how so many common statistics can be so accurate

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/16 12:20 by WRRC.

It scares me!

In the past, I have found that, with steamers, the more things you take apart and "play with", the more problems that you build into the reassembly and function-testing.

Unless there is a clear and demonstrable need, taking stuff apart for emotional reward or curiosity, rarely comes out well.
I had better outcomes by doing the minimal amount of tear-down , lubrication and reassembly.

"Fools rush in, where Angels Fear to tread..."  was a saying you'd hear in my family, many years past.
It is plenty applicable in this instance.

If the engine was sidelined account of too much goop in the boiler, and it had trouble making steam, why not just remedy the the presented problem?   The extensive, and unnecessary, extra work has needless efforts going into many areas -----that are questionable.    It had barely 100 days SINCE its last 1472-day work, IIRC?
Clearly, the amount of work undertaken & tearing it down, was completely unnecessary, arbitrary and capricious.

Scott Lindsay, et al,( as well as Doyle's '49 crew)  knew that the major components of their engine were amply capable of continuing to fulfill the requirements of the service ---- without the curiosity-driven, take-everything-apart syndrome.
Items of earlier concern were well recognized, plans and schedules drawn- up, materials ordered and the proper repairs were satisfactorily completed.  

Scott's skill in totally replacing the 611's pilot truck wheels, axles and bearings was a masterful example of adapting today's components to work admirably in the grueling service.  The design of the entirely new housings, to accommodate the GG bearings' 'cartridge package' ( with integral seals), is truly a marvel of today's ingenuity, to behold. AND, the new design is clearly an engineering improvement over the original,  cumbersome design.

Too bad such a beautiful example of a superb design is virtually impossible to see and appreciate ( except when over an inspection pit)  The new pilot wheels, of today's standards and materials,  are superb, too..  A truly wonderful betterment, fitting of today's capabilities.

With poor 844, taking apart so many complete systems builds-in errors, mistakes and faulty reassembly.  
Another Murphy's Law corollary goes like this:
 The more things you take apart exponentially increases the probability that the individual systems will fail.
And, that failure-pattern occurs in a sequential manner ----- you no sooner get one thing fixed, and another, wholly unrelated system goes down....Get THAT fixed, and a different system 'busts a gut'.... On it goes...

All of these occurrences are completely the result of too much tinkering, by choice.  And, these problems are of one's own creation.
The next step will be, after the acceptable hydro results, will be to slap together all the doo-dads and whirligigs --- get all the jewelry  applied, with jackets and lagging, get it painted and then do the live fire-up and steam test....

THEN, the presenting problem(s) is burried under all that stuff that you just put on.  
After much cursing, fits, and  crying, ---- problems are chased down and corrected, one after the other.

The steam engines are a non-caring lot. Over the ages, They have made grown men cry and weak men moan.  The engines are inanimate, none-caring beasts.   It takes real skill and many 'learning-experiences' to get these engines up to their optimal high-speed performance capabilities...

The bell-curve of peak performance has very long vertical legs ( poor performance ) and a very narrow peak-performance area right at the very tip of the curve.  Traps you have set for yourself (unknowingly) , ...will all begin to ensnare you in clutches of your own creation...  ( shades of Uncle Remus'  famous tar-baby story ).... 

Its gonna be fun, seeing how many trips back-to-the-barn, that this engine will make before its finally road-worthy.
There will be a lot of tool-throwing, cursing and crying going-on inside their building.
As they wrestle to fix their the problems of their own making.

Road tests, will add more moments of pain and humor, as new difficulties reveal themselves.... Seems utterly the work of the Devil.

Without exception, almost all good steam folks, by-gone and current,  have had regrets, stumbles, made errors and paid the price ---- it is the cost of a solid, experiential education.  Once self-taught, you never forget the most impactful mistakes, and you rarely repeat them.

The coming steps-to-steam are going to be fun to observe.
My tongue will be full of holes, from biting down hard---- to avoid making utterances of ' We told you so!'

Its gonna be very hard to get through it, without making snide comments.....
[ I'll try to restrain myself... He said, tongue firmly planted in his cheek...] 

W.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/16 15:52 by wcamp1472.

Thank you John, Realist, Wes for your thoughtful posts.

Realist Wrote:
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> Maybe (probably) you know, Mr. Craft:

Mr. Craft was my dad - I'm just John ;)

> How long did it take from arrival at Spencer to
> Departure under steam for 611?

I believe Mr. Moorman removed the ceremonial first nut from 611 on May 29, 2014.

So less than a year.


WRRC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would note, based on your post with days between events, you said that the dates are from STEAM
> TEST to operation. NOT, Hydro to operation, correct? This means that even your dates would
> suggest a reasonable time line from Hydro to steam test of about 100 days or more. Interesting how
> so many common statistics can be so accurate

Correct - steam test, not hydro. 

To the extent that I had a point, it was that a good crew can get stuff done pretty quickly. So if you're not getting stuff done . . . 

I have a great deal of respect for the crews that returned 611 and 1218 to service. I also have a great deal of respect for guys like Steve Lee, the crew he assembled, and John Rimmasch, who get stuff done. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Further, affiant sayeth naught.