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Steam & Excursion > Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question"Date: 06/22/16 18:50 Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: KeyRouteKen Ok all you SP officiados: Here is a great MYSTERY QUESTION to ponder and we'll see who can come up with the TWO answers required !!
Sorry, but 'HotWater' cannot participate as we'll see later. Ready ??? "SP 4-8-4 # 4443 was a VERY famous steam locomotive. It was used on quite a few railfan excursions AND was the "star" of the Hollywood motion picture "PAL JOEY" in March-1957, with Frank Sinatra... Unfortunately, the locomotive was sent to scrap later in the year and cut up. Very Sad, Indeed ! However, -- A very important part of it survived !!! Question: What survived and where is it located ???????" KRK Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/16 18:51 by KeyRouteKen. Date: 06/22/16 18:57 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: patd3985 I'll guess it's the builder's plate and it's probably in LoggerHogger's den!... (Sorry Martin...I just couldn't resist!).
Date: 06/22/16 19:08 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: KeyRouteKen patd3985 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I'll guess it's the builder's plate and it's > probably in LoggerHogger's den!... (Sorry > Martin...I just couldn't resist!). NO !! Sorry ! A lot bigger and much heavier than a builders plate--- and, still in active STEAM service ! Next ...... KRK Date: 06/22/16 19:10 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: LoggerHogger Her tender.
Martin Date: 06/22/16 19:19 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: KeyRouteKen LoggerHogger Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Her tender. > > Martin Sorry Martin--I'll say NO !! I am thinking about something else, still in active STEAM service ! If you have proof about the Tender, let us know, please. However, this is a very historic item from SP 4443-- and it will blow you away when you get the TWO answers !! KRK Date: 06/22/16 19:24 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: cornerfieldhobby I say the Whistle and the Bell.
Date: 06/22/16 19:27 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: VintageMac The pony truck on 4449.
Date: 06/22/16 19:33 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: KeyRouteKen VintageMac Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > The pony truck on 4449. You need to explain yourself a little more clearly. First, there was TWO questions... What was the item saved ? Where is it located today ! Pony Truck cannot be correct because it is only TWO wheels. A "Lead" truck or "Engine Truck" is four wheels and helps guide a locomotive around sharp curves ! Next...... KRK Date: 06/22/16 20:13 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: VintageMac The item is the engine truck. It was originally on the 4443 and is now on the 4449. That is where it is located - on the 4449!
Larry Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/16 20:21 by VintageMac. Date: 06/22/16 20:20 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: VintageMac The other "claim to fame" for 4443 is that it was the locomotive that had a head-on collision with SP-1 4-10-2 #5015 in 1945. The engine truck was damaged in that accident and still shows evidence of welding repairs.
Larry Date: 06/22/16 20:33 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: KeyRouteKen VintageMac Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > The item is the engine truck. It was originally > on the 4443 and is now on the 4449. That is > where it is located - on the 4449! > > Larry OK-- You Win... Amazing--How did you know THAT ? Here is a little bit more detailed info: The 4443 had a head-on collision with SP 4-10-2 #5015 on February 11th, 1945. Its "Lead Truck" (Engine Truck) is currently on SP 4449 at OHRC in Portland !! (Verified by "HotWater") Now why the 4449 needed a different Engine Truck is anyone's guess ! Thanks to all who played ! KRK .. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/16 20:34 by KeyRouteKen. Date: 06/22/16 20:48 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: VintageMac I happened by the roundhouse in 1981 when the 4449 was being prepared for the Louisiana World's Fair Daylight trip.
The engine truck had been rolled out from under the locomotive and was plainly stamped 4443. Do you need my address for the prize? Larry Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/16 20:50 by VintageMac. Date: 06/22/16 21:11 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: agentatascadero KRK, So I guess the big question is: how did you learn of this interesting trivia? AA
Stanford White Carmel Valley, CA Date: 06/22/16 21:34 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: Txhighballer Here is the accident report:
INTERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION WASHINGTON INVESTIGATION NO. 2869 SOUTHERN PACIFIC COMPANY REPORT IN RE ACCIDENT AT REDLANDS, CALIF., ON FEBRUARY 11, 1945 SUMMARY Railroad: Southern Pacific Date: February 11, 1945 Location: Redlands, Calif. Kind of accident: Head-end collision Trains involved: Passenger: Freight Train numbers: 43: Extra 5015 East Engine numbers: 4443: 5015-3711-3664 Consist: 19 cars: 96 cars, caboose Estimated speed: 20 m. p. h.: 10 m. p. h. Operation: Signal indications Track: Single; 3 degrees 03' curve; 1.2333 percent descending grade westward Weather: Clear Time: 9:54 a.m. Casualties: 177 injured Cause: Failure to obey signal indications INTERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION INVESTIGATION NO. 2869 IN THE MATTER OF MAKING ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION REPORTS UNDER THE ACCIDENT REPORTS ACT OF MAY 6, 1910. SOUTHERN PACIFIC COMPANY April 5, 1945. Accident at Redlands, Calif., on February 11, 1945, caused by failure to obey signal indications. REPORT OF THE COMMISSION 1 PATTERSON, Commissioner: On February 11, 1945, there was a head-end collision between a passenger train and a freight train on the line of the Southern Pacific Company at Redlands, Calif., which resulted in the injury of 157 passengers, 2 persons carried under contract, 1 express messenger, 6 dining-car employees, 4 train porters, 6 train-service employees on duty and 1 train-service employee off duty. This accident was investigated in conjunction with a representative of the Railroad. Commission of California. Diagram Inv. No. 2869 Southern Pacific Company Redlands, Calif. February 11, 1945 Location of Accident and Method of Operation This accident occurred on that part of the Los Angeles Division designated as the Beaumont Subdivision and extending westward from Indio Yard to Colton, Calif., 72.3 miles. This was a single-track line over which trains were operated by signal indications. At Redlands, 65 miles west of Indio Yard, a siding 6,570 feet long paralleled the main track on the south. The west switch of this siding was 3,868 feet west of the station. The accident occurred on the main track 47 feet west of the west siding-switch. From the east there were, in succession, a. tangent 1,343 feet in length, a compound curve to the right 1,489 feet, the maximum curvature of which was 2 degrees 07', a tangent 3,661 feet, a 2 degrees curve to the left 1,570 feet, a tangent 92 feet and a compound curve to the right, the maximum curvature of which was 3 degrees 03', extending 1,546 feet to the point of accident and 595 feet westward. From the west there were, in succession, a 2 degrees curve to the right 1,773 feet in length, a tangent 1,744 feet and the curve on which the accident occurred. The grade was 1.2333 percent descending westward. Semi-automatic signals 128L and 126LA, governing west-bound movements, were, respectively, 6,624 feet and 301 feet east of the point of accident. Automatic signal 5446 and semi-automatic signal 126R, governing east-bound movements were, respectively, 4,095 feet west and 38 feet east of the point of accident. Signals 5446 and 126LA were of the one-unit color-light type, and signals 128L and 126R were of the two-unit color-light type. These signals were continuously lighted. The involved aspects and corresponding indications of these signals were as follows: Signal Aspect Indication 128L Yellow Proceed Prepared to and stop at next home 5446 signal 126LA Red Stop 126R Red-over-green Proceed on Diverging route Signals 128L, 126LA and 126R and the west siding-switch were controlled by a centralized-traffic-machine at Beaumont, 15.7 miles east of Redlands. Approach locking was provided, and the circuits of the controlled signals involved were so arranged that when the west siding-switch was lined for movement from the main track to the siding, signal 128L would display yellow; signal 126LA, red; signal 126R, red-over-green; and signal 5446, yellow. The control machine was provided with visual indicators, and the controlling circuits were arranged to indicate the movement of trains within the centralized-traffic-control territory. Operating rules read in part as follows: 34. All members of train and engine crews must, when practicable, communicate to each other by its name, the indication of each signal affecting the movement of their train. 772. The main track and controlled sidings must not be fouled, unless authorized by an absolute signal indication, or by permission from the dispatcher. * * * 776. When an absolute signal indicates "stop", except when it is known to be caused by the approach of a train at a meeting * * * point, the dispatcher must be consulted as quickly as possible after stopping, * * * The maximum authorized speed for the passenger train was 50 miles per hour, and for the freight train, 35 miles per hour. Description of Accident No. 43, a west-bound passenger train, consisted of engine 4443, there baggage-mail cars, seven coaches, one dining-car, three coaches, one lunch-car and four coaches, in the order named. All cars were of steel construction. This train passed signal 128L, which displayed proceed-prepared-to-stop-at-next-home signal, stopped at the station at Redlands, and departed at 9:53 a.m., on time, passed signal 126LA, which displayed stop, and while moving at an estimated speed of 20 miles per hour it collided with Extra 5015 East at a point 301 feet west of signal 126LA and 47 feet west of. the west siding-switch. Extra 5015 East, an east-bound freight train, consisting of engine 5015, 96 cars, engines 3711 and 3664 and a caboose, in the order named, passed signal 5446, which displayed proceed- prepared-to-stop-at-next home signal, and while moving at an estimated speed of 10 miles per hour it collided with No. 43. The engine and the second and ninth cars of No. 43, and the first engine, the fourth to the ninth cars, inclusive, and the-sixty-fifth to the seventy-first cars, inclusive, of Extra 5015 were derailed. The engine and 17 cars of No. 43 and the first engine and 15 cars of Extra 5015 were more or less damaged. It was clear at the time of the accident, which occurred about 9:54 a.m. The engineer, the fireman and the baggageman of No. 43, the engineer and the fireman of the first engine and the front brakeman of Extra 5015 were injured. Discussion About 20 minutes before the accident occurred, the dispatcher at Beaumont placed the levers of the centralized-traffic-control machine in position for signal 126LA to display stop for No. 43, and for signal 126R to display proceed-on-diverging-route for Extra 5015 East, and lined the route for Extra 5015 East to enter the siding at the west switch at Redlands to meet No. 43. As Extra 5015 East was approaching the west siding-switch the enginemen of the first engine were maintaining a lookout ahead. They observed that signal 126R displayed red-over-green, and that the west switch was lined for entry to the siding. The first these employees knew of anything being wrong was when the fireman saw the engine of No. 43 pass the clearance point of the west siding-switch. He called a warning to the engineer, who immediately moved the brake valve to emergency position, but the collision occurred before the brakes became effective. As No. 43 was approaching the point where the accident occurred the speed was 30 miles per hour, according to the tape of the speed recorder. The air brakes had functioned properly at all points where used en route. The enginemen understood that, under the rules, the yellow aspect displayed by signal 128L required their train to proceed prepared to stop short of signal 126LA, and the red aspect displayed by signal 126LA required the train to stop short of that signal and not to proceed until an indication permitting the train to proceed was displayed or proper authority from the train dispatcher had been received. Because of track curvature the view of signal 126LA from the left side of a west-bound engine was materially restricted. This signal could be seen from the right side of a west-bound engine throughout a distance of about 1,800 feet immediately east of the signal. The engineer of No. 43 said that soon after the train departed from the station at Redlands he looked eastward and thought he Saw smoke in the vicinity of the third or fourth car, which indicated to him that the brakes of these cars had not released, and he made several attempts to release the brakes. He did not see the aspect displayed by signal 126LA until the engine was about 300 feet east of the signal, then he observed, simultaneously, the red aspect displayed by this signal and the approaching train, and he immediately moved the brake valve to emergency position in an unsuccessful attempt to stop short of the signal. However, the train was not stopped and the speed was about 20 miles per hour when the collision occurred. If No. 43 had been operated in accordance with the indications displayed by the signals involved, the accident would not have occurred. Cause It is found that this accident was caused by failure to obey signal indications. Dated at Washington, D. C., this fifth day of April, 1945. By the Commission, Commissioner Patterson. W. P. BARTEL, (SEAL) Secretary. FOOT NOTE 1. Under authority of section 17 (2) of the Interstate Commerce Act the above-entitled proceeding was referred by the Commission to Commissioner Patterson for consideration and disposition. Date: 06/23/16 00:39 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: MMD The Redlands 'Head - On' is covered in Jim Boynton's book Three Barrels of Steam on pages 76 - 81, the crew on 4443 were Fred G Toates and the fireman was Jack Fassett, on the East bound Extra 5015 the crew was Emmett Bonner and Willard Joslyn. February 11th 1945
I was told by an SP engineer Danny Danforth that Jack Fassett was still working in 1973, Danny was riding with me on a switcher I was running at the time, this was in late 1973. Malcolm New Zealand. Date: 06/23/16 02:19 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: Margaret_SP_fan I had guessed the whistle, too -- I thought it was
the one Martin Hansen loaned or gave to the 4449 around 4 years ago, or so. FYI -- SP Train 43 was the "Cherokee", which ran from Mamphis to Los Angeles on the Golden State route, according to the "Official Guide" for November, 1949. I had absolutely NO IDEA the 4449 had any other locomotive's front truck! I do know that almost all steam locomotives had parts from other steam locomotives. As to why there is no record of why the 4449 got another locomotive's front truck -- perhaps collisions thathappened in yards were not always reported to the ICC? I dunno -- this is just a guess. Someone would have to look at all the ICC accident reports from 1945 (when the head-on involving the 4443 happened) and 1957 (when the 4449 was "vacated".). While I was helping to restore the 2472, I made a list of all the locomotive numbers I found on the 2472. I found 16 different numbers! There may have been more, but that is how many I found. (I joined “Project 2472“ back in 1979, and worked all over her, and thus got to see a lot of her parts with no paint of grease on them, as we had to remove all that in order to see what needed fixing.) In case anyone is interested,and to put this list on the web, so it is preserved in case my original list gets lost or destroyed, here it is: “R” = Engineer’s side “L” = Fireman's side 2463 -- Equalizing beam -- Trailing truck 2477 -- Floating bushing -- L drive rod 2479 -- Union link -- R 2480 -- Spring rigging -- Part of trailing truck 2484 -- Rigging -- Front truck boxes 3671 -- Saddle -- R 2 3715 -- Cellar cover -- L trailing truck 4301 -- Box -- Trailing truck 4318 -- Steam chest valve -- L 4326 -- Oil bunker -- L side of tender 4346 -- Saddle -- R 3 4352 or 4353 -- Box -- L trailing truck 4358 -- Pilot truck -- R B 4432 -- Cellar cover -- L trailing truck 5001 -- Stirrup -- L 1 rear 5005 -- Stirrup -- L 1 rear “R IV” -- Saddle -- R1 There may be other locomotive numbers elsewhere on the 2472 that I did not see or record. This list is all that I wrote down -- I have no other info on any of these parts. Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/16 10:00 by Margaret_SP_fan. Date: 06/23/16 06:45 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: Earlk The further the sstory recalled in Three Barrels of Steam, the engineer was making his last trip before retirement. He came into Redlands on a yellow signal, but somehow forgot that important item. He got the highball from the conductor and put it to 4443 getting the train out of town, completely forgetting he was running on yellow. With the throttle up in the roof of the cab, he came around the curve and there was a red signal the 5000 just nosing through thw switch into the siding.
Ouch... A real bad way to go into retirement. Date: 06/23/16 10:26 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: railflack91 wild guess -- the bell survived and is now given annually to the winner of the USC-UCLA football game
Date: 06/24/16 16:23 Re: Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive "Mystery Question" Author: kilroydiver The USC-UCLA bell is off of SP 3107.
Dave |