Steam & Excursion > When does the Cumbres & Toltec double head to Cumbres Pass?

I have ridden the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad from Chama to Osier three times.  Twice the trains were double headed to Cumbres Pass.  I believe both times may have been on weekends.  Is that normal practice?  How do they determine when they will double head?  Based on number of tickets presold?

Thanks!

If the 463 is the road engine 4/1/2 is about the train limit, add another head end coach or the caboose
and you double head. The 36's will handle 5/1/2 pretty easily though if you're adding things they usually
will double head. The 489 cam in yesterday with about 8/1/4 (coaches, gon, parlor, caboose and one
other car). If that went East it would definitely be double headed. The other thing to consider is the
rain or snow and even then a K36 might be double headed with the normal 5/1/2 consist.

Out

callum_out Wrote:
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> If the 463 is the road engine 4/1/2 is about the
> train limit, add another head end coach or the
> caboose
> and you double head. The 36's will handle 5/1/2
> pretty easily though if you're adding things they
> usually
> will double head. The 489 cam in yesterday with
> about 8/1/4 (coaches, gon, parlor, caboose and
> one
> other car). If that went East it would definitely
> be double headed. The other thing to consider is
> the
> rain or snow and even then a K36 might be double
> headed with the normal 5/1/2 consist.
>
> Out

Not sure on your nomenclature, but 215 came in yesterday with 14 cars: 7 coaches, cafe, open gon, tourist, parlor, open gon and 2 cabeese.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, VA

But, Sharon, No.215 wouldn't be fighting the 4 % grade up Cumbres.

Nomenclature is tourist cars, gon, parlor cars and I mentioned the inbound 489 which was nearly an hour late.
463 will handle a full sized train East of Cumbres but needs help getting there. There was a train a week or so
ago with a helper, normal sized train plus rain, it all depends on the conditions. It's about 7 cars for the 463,
8 maybe 9 for the 36s with the condition of weather to change that.

Out

meixel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have ridden the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad
> from Chama to Osier three times.  Twice the
> trains were double headed to Cumbres Pass.  I
> believe both times may have been on weekends.  Is
> that normal practice?  How do they determine when
> they will double head?  Based on number of
> tickets presold?
>
> Thanks!

The simple answer here is that, yes, generally speaking, ticket sales is the deciding factor-  More passengers= more cars= more locomotives (up to 3).
SR

 

The_Chief_Way Wrote:
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> But, Sharon, No.215 wouldn't be fighting the 4 %
> grade up Cumbres.

​Correct, it shows how different the 2 trains can be. That 215 had 12 cars out of Antonito with 2 added in Osier, they went east on 216 and flipped. The railroad's rule of thumb is 463 needs help with 6 - 7 or more cars, though they usually use it on the 9 or more, and the K36's with 9 or more depending on weather.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, VA

Doubleheading is expensive.  You will normally see it on the busiest times of the season.  Saturdays in September would be the best bet, along with Opening Day.  

It is unlikely that someone wakes up in the morning and decides "Let's Doublehead today".  Knowing how many seats you need on both sides of the line is known beforehand and can be planned for.  But other events might help that decision; are extra cars needed to be moved out of Chama ?  Maybe for a special train later that week?  Maybe you have a tour group that wants to ride westbound tomorrow and you need those cars in Antonito.

Over the years  running the railroad has gotten much more complicated.  Let's say it costs $700/day just to have an engine under steam thanks to the 1472 day rule.  Crew costs are significant and at times you may not have an extra crew.  At one time, there were incentives for guests to ride out of Antonito as you could run longer trains on the east side.  But now they try to keep the train intact across the line, so you don't have to switch in Osier.  While 463 can't take a full train up this hill on its own now, its availability is a benifit when one of the K36's is down for a boiler wash.  

There's nothing like the sound of two locomotives pulling a long train up the 4%.  Equally cool in my opinion is the rare event when you have two pulling a train at track speed out of Antonito, like when 315 and 463 did it opening day 2014 (and maybe next year).

Disclaimer: I don't work for the railroad, but I've been around it for a long time.  WW correct me if I've mistated something!.

Bill Kepner



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/16 09:03 by drgw0579.

A K-36 can pull 232 tons from Chama to Cumbres or 825 tons Antonito to Cumbres. The 463 can pull 180 tons Chama to Cumbres (corrections on the 463 tonnage rating welcome. if 180 tons is not accurate it is close). There are curve allowances.
​  As for the long train coming west the extra cars may have been put on at Antonito.

Back when I was Supt. of the C&TS, one my my daily duties was coordinating between the ticket office, the train crews and the mechanical dept on what was needed for the next day's train, and try to look into the crystal ball into the future.

As mentioned above, a 480 is good for 232 tons up the 4% grade between Chama and Cumbres.  Each of the passenger cars wieghs in at about 30 tons - full of passengers.  The flat roof cars are a bit lighter, but not enough to make much difference.  The open gondola tips the scales at 20 tons.  So, a 480 can get 7 passenger cars and the gondola up the hill.  That's 230 tons.  The rear 4 cars stay the same every day - the two first class cars, gondola and concession car.  That leaves you 4 cars you can add.  Each car holds about 44 passengers - depending on how the restrooms are set up in each car.  That gives you 176 coach seats.  In reality you would be doing real good to get 150 passengers on board.  Any more than that, and you need a helper.  I used to figure that if we filled the extra car, we paid for the helper.  Sell two more cars and we make more money....

The situation is different now in that the train consists run through to each end.  When I was there we turned the consists back at the lunch stop.  Back then, the majority of the passengers made a round trip from Antonito or Chama to the mid-point at Osier and returned.  By keeping the consists captive on each end, the majority of passengers simply got back into the same seat in the same car they came in on, the the through passengers, transferred to the other train.  That made life simple in that you always had enough seats for everyone and didn't have to deadhead head cars from one end to have enough seats after lunch.
 

Grande473 Wrote:
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> ​  As for the long train coming west the extra
> cars may have been put on at Antonito.

​As I noted above, 12 cars came out of Antonito and the other 2, a coach and caboose were added in Osier from 216.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, VA

Thank you all for the great information!

Of course my real question should have been: "When should I ride to guarantee a double headed train from Chama?"

For regularly scheduled trains I am guessing any Saturday/Sunday train, during the summer, will be double headed.  Does that make sense?

Thanks again!

During the summer, the Sunday Cinder Bear experience can be a double header if enough kids and parents ride. Other then that one never knows. When I was there for work session E last week in July there were 3 double headers in 8 days, but you never know.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, VA

The period around Fall colors usually sees a car added so a doubleheader is a good possibility.

Out

Thanks!