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Steam & Excursion > SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21


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Date: 01/08/17 13:05
SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: Barstool

The date Dec. 1953 and train 2-21 the Mail is super late as GS2 4412 rolls thru Martinez, this train hits Martinez about 11 p.M. and now its the next day and its 2 P.M., train 21 was always loaded with head end equipment and moving dead head equipment..the train almost always sports 20 to 25 cars...You can tell its cold, by all the steam pouring out of the stack and in just a minute the 4412 will open up when she hits berrellessa St. in Martinez, but not much reason to try and make up time as this train is super late....




Date: 01/08/17 13:31
Re: section of train 21
Author: timz

Running as Second 247 maybe?



Date: 01/08/17 14:33
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: refarkas

I really like the smoke trailing behind the locomotive. Great photo.
Bob



Date: 01/08/17 14:39
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: HotWater

refarkas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really like the smoke trailing behind the
> locomotive. Great photo.
> Bob

Since it is pretty much solid white, I'd say that was steam vapor. Unless of course the fire was out, which I seriously doubt.

Truly spectacular photo!!!!!



Date: 01/08/17 15:00
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: lynnpowell

Where did this train originate?  Portland?  Ogden?  Los Angeles?



Date: 01/08/17 15:11
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: Frisco1522

That's what I'm talkin about.  Enough bloody nose dizmals, flood TO with this kind of SP.



Date: 01/08/17 15:13
Re: section of train 21
Author: Barstool

timz.....You could be right,,,I couldn't make out the number board, but this was a real late 21, but running as a second 247 makes sense, at the time, i did not write good notes and many notes over the years disappeared..



Date: 01/08/17 15:15
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: Barstool

Lynn....this train orginated in Odgen, a hand over from the UP, most likely very nasty weather across the UP as well as the SP across nevada and Donner.



Date: 01/08/17 16:34
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: wcamp1472

Yes....

Locos DO leave con-trails, just like airplanes in the sky...

A properly fired engine burns its fuel to complete combustion.... the carbon is oxidized all the way down to CO2, ...a clear, colorless gas.  The other major component that is oxidized is hydrogen. That oxidized  product is H2O, (sub scripts not possible),
water vapor.  So, the steam con-trail is made up of the gases in the exhaust stream from the fire, together with the cylinders' exhausted  steam.  

So airplane's exhaust is the water vapor resulting from the lean burning of the carbon/hydrogen jet fuel.  Most of the time, at those altitudes, the visible contrail is made up of ice crystals....if it's cold enough at ground level, that water vapor, from locos, will also become frozen.

W.



Date: 01/08/17 17:42
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: railstiesballast

In rule books of the time schedules cease to be in effect after 12 hours.  If this No. 21's equipment it would have to run as an extra or as a section of another schedule.
I don't have a 1953 timetable handy, but it is more likely No. 217 or 247.
If it was a second section it would dispay 2-21, not 221 in the train indicator box.
There is no reason it could not be run as a freight schedule if the dispatcher had a convenient one to use, this might be easier than setting up an extra.
None of this diminishes the fine image you shared, thank you.



Date: 01/08/17 20:09
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: rcape

With the photo taken in December, it seems likely that this is an Ogden-Oakland Pier holiday mail & express train.  The Winter 2006 SP Trainline (published by the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society) has an article by John Signor on these trains.  The article includes the company's 1955 plan for handling HM&E traffic.  Starting December 7, 1955 the westward HM&E train on the Ogden Route was scheduled to leave Ogden at 8:00 am, with the train out of Sacramento the following day at 10:15 am and arrival at Oakland Pier scheduled for 1:15 pm.
 



Date: 01/08/17 22:26
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: Barstool

Digging through my notes, the reason for the lateness of the train was a derailment on the UP that blocked the line for about six or more hours...If this train was on time, I would have never seen it.....23, the Gold coast rolled thru about two hours before this mail train did, so apparently there was quite a back up...  And the Gold Coast should hve been an  hour... behind this guy???...Any thoughts??



Date: 01/09/17 08:32
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: mundo

Since the Gold Coast would have had some passengers, maybe the thought was to allow it to run around 2-21.  Or maybe their was a crew problem, they could crew one train but not two trains at the moment.



Date: 01/09/17 08:40
Re: SP GS 4412 on a 2-section of train 21
Author: Chico43

RTB is correct. This equipment lost it's right to operate on this Division's timetable schedule as No. 21 when it arrived at it's initial station on the Division in excess of 12 hours late. Most likely, the dispatcher simply plugged this train into a convenient Second Class schedule, perhaps because there was insufficent traffic to run No. 247 on that day and it would have been annuled anyway. The indicator boxes and the absence of signals would tend to indicate that this equipment is the only train operating as No. 247 on that day, but I'll defer to the EsPee experts on all of this.



Date: 01/09/17 10:13
Re: SP 2-247
Author: timz

> The indicator boxes and the absence of
> signals would tend to indicate that this
> equipment is the only train operating
> as No. 247 on that day

Probably 247 in the indicators-- right?
(Don't think 217 existed in 1953.) So
first guess is it's running as the last
section of 247, and so showing no
section number in the indicators.
(You remember SP started doing
that around 1950.).



Date: 01/09/17 11:22
Re: SP 2-247
Author: BCHellman

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The indicator boxes and the absence of
> > signals would tend to indicate that this
> > equipment is the only train operating
> > as No. 247 on that day
>
> Probably 247 in the indicators-- right?
> (Don't think 217 existed in 1953.) So
> first guess is it's running as the last
> section of 247, and so showing no
> section number in the indicators.
> (You remember SP started doing
> that around 1950.).


Western No. 256, September 27, 1953, was in effect when this shot was taken (assuming no Supplements), and there was no train No. 217. Given the lighting and what Barstool said was the time, the train is running as First Class No. 247, the "El Dorado." And agree with timz that this is most likely the final section of No. 247 (last section showed no section -- "None"-- with the 1951 Rule Book).

FYI -- westward passenger trains of discussion at Martinez:

No. 21, Mail, 12.40AM
No. 23, Gold Coast, 4.47AM
No. 247, El Dorado, 8.23AM
No. 229, Governor, 1.12PM
No. 27, San Francisco Overland, 1.38PM

From the schedule above, it would likely seem the picture was taken between 8.23AM and 1.12PM; otherwise the Martinez Subdivision DS would have run the Mail on the authority of train No. 229. One also assumes that the San Francisco Overland was extremely late because what ailed the Mail would also ail the Overland.

Barstool, do you recall if the Mail made a stop at Martinez this day, because train No. 21 does not show a stop at Martinez, but train No. 247 does.

Also curious what authority the Mail ran on the Mountain Sub since No. 247 originated at Sacramento.

At any rate, another great day to be track side at Martinez.



Date: 01/09/17 12:13
Re: SP 2-247
Author: Chico43

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The indicator boxes and the absence of
> > signals would tend to indicate that this
> > equipment is the only train operating
> > as No. 247 on that day
>
> Probably 247 in the indicators-- right?
> (Don't think 217 existed in 1953.) So
> first guess is it's running as the last
> section of 247, and so showing no
> section number in the indicators.
> (You remember SP started doing
> that around 1950.).

Ok, thanks. I was not aware of the rule change regarding the display of the section and schedule number.



Date: 01/09/17 13:33
Re: SP 2-247
Author: Alexmarissa

I thought the GS-2's were better looking than the GS-4's.



Date: 01/09/17 14:44
Re: SP 2-247
Author: RL_Cabin

While my first thought was to agree with rcape that this is a holiday mail & express extra, Barstool's notes saying #23 (Gold Coast) was delayed as well that day led me to look a little further.  The December 10, 1953 SP Sacramento Division Mountain dispatcher's train sheet contains the following notation:

"@605pm opr fy reports wx2816 on ground at west portal Tunnel 28. EB main blocked. Spreader on ground also lead drivers Eng 2816. X6302E ordered held at Rville. Wrecker ordered. Later spreader partly turned over and damaged. All officers notified. Single track between Bowman & Colfax.  RDS at fy.  DSG at Bowman. @ 800pm WP Chief Dispr reported they have spreader on ground between Marysville & Oroville. No 21 Sacto 215am & No 23 Sacto 315am gave figures to H opr @ Eng rerailed 905pm"

A few words of translation: "fy" is Colfax. RDS is Richard D. Spence, then a trainmaster and later SP VP Operations and president of L&N and Conrail.  While the westbound main was not blocked by the derailment, the cleanup using the wrecker may well have taken it out of service.  As a precaution, 3 westbound passenger trains were diverted to the Western Pacific at Weso, Nevada: #21 Mail, #23 Gold Coast and #101 City of San Francisco.  The dispatcher's note indicates #21 was due in Sacramento at 2:15 am, but this probably was an early estimate and it looks like the WP was having its own troubles.

So it's possible by the time things got sorted out the trains, now back on the SP, would have been very late out of Sacramento, and perhaps as Barstool indicates the Gold Coast #23 was allowed to run ahead of #21 (now running as #247).  By the way, the schedules of all 3 trains detouring on the WP were annuled on the Sacramento Division.  They probably were on the Western Division as well.

RL Cabin

 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/17 16:45 by RL_Cabin.



Date: 01/09/17 17:52
Re: SP 2-247
Author: Barstool

BCHellman......101,21 and 23 all slowed down at Martinez and dumped out mail bags on the move and on the east end, 102, 22 and 24 would slow down going EB with the mail bag arm out and grab mail on the move..EB mail was gathered from concord, Walnut Creek, Pleasant Hill and Danville, dropped off at the Martinez post office and assembled for direction...Even the locals did RPO work...It was possible to write a letter at Martinez and with a little luck if the letter was going to Dixon or Davis,Crockett or Selby it was possible to get it the same day...George



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