Steam & Excursion > Question regarding RR firemen

Trying to refresh my memory.
In the steam era, railroads required the use of firemen to keep steam locomotives hot. When diesels replaced steam, if I remember correctly, as per union agreements, railroads were required to keep paying firemen to occupy diesel cabs despite the fact there was nothing for a fireman to do in a diesel. They got to keep there jobs until they retired. Am I correct on this? Did this affect ALL railroads or just a few?

Thanks in advance.

Do nothing is not correct. If a diesel in unit of 2 or more failed it was the fireman's job to try to get it running again.  If he could not the unit had to be isolated or taken off line.  If the units had steam generators I believe he was responsible to keep them operating.

wigwag Wrote:
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> Trying to refresh my memory.
> In the steam era, railroads required the use of
> firemen to keep steam locomotives hot. When
> diesels replaced steam, if I remember correctly,
> as per union agreements, railroads were required
> to keep paying firemen to occupy diesel cabs
> despite the fact there was nothing for a fireman
> to do in a diesel. They got to keep there jobs
> until they retired. Am I correct on this? Did this
> affect ALL railroads or just a few?
>
> Thanks in advance.

Well sort of. In the VERY early days of diesels, i.e. 1934 thru 1945, the Fireman did have something to do. The FT series of freight units, for example, did NOT have automatic engine temperature control, so the Fireman had to keep going back into the engine room in order to "clutch in" the cooling fans, which were all belt driven.

tomstp Wrote:
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> Do nothing is not correct. If a diesel in unit of
> 2 or more failed it was the fireman's job to try
> to get it running again.  If he could not the
> unit had to be isolated or taken off line.  If
> the units had steam generators I believe he was
> responsible to keep them operating.

Do you know what was required to keep a steam generator going?

wigwag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tomstp Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Do nothing is not correct. If a diesel in unit
> of
> > 2 or more failed it was the fireman's job to
> try
> > to get it running again.  If he could not the
> > unit had to be isolated or taken off line.  If
> > the units had steam generators I believe he was
> > responsible to keep them operating.
>
> Do you know what was required to keep a steam
> generator going?

Not much, in my experience. If the damned thing didn't work, some trouble shooting was in order, but there really wasn't much in the way or repairs that a Fireman could do while on the road. In my experiences, they worked pretty well and only occasional blowdowns were required, and shutting off the trainlined steam supply prior to entering the end passenger terminal was very important.

Consider automatic burner and water level control three days removed from the Jurassic era, they got better
by the time the E units hit 7 or so but the early controls were often unreliable.

Out

Watching signals is important enough work
 

In the Bipolar's, the steam generator was a bitch to keep going from what I have read......

Good question btw

Posted from iPhone

I fired a lot out of Emporia, KS. The RFE there expected the firemen to earn their keep. We mostly had main line crew changes there in the early 80's. I'd throw my grip on the side of the lead unit, and catch the rear one when it came by. I'd go inside and check that all the motors were cut in, the unit was loading, see that the DB was cut in if it was supposed to be, see that the mirrors were folded in, and that there were no alarms, or red flags in the electrical cabinet, and check the head light switch. I'd open the hood doors, find the dip stick, and check the lube oil level, check the water & govenor oil level. On to the next unit, noting that the safety chains were up, and do the same there, and each unit in the consist. Once on the road, If there were any porblems enroute, I'd grab my gloves & flashlight, and start back, and it seems like it was always the rear unit. Even at speeds up to 70, daylight and dark, good weather and bad, I'd make my way back, and try to figure out what was wrong, so we didn't have to stop. Usually ground relay, or hot engine alarms, and I would do what I could. If it was suspected a unit wasn't loading, I'd go back and try to figure that out. Sometimes I had to find a reverser, and double head a unit, account bad order MU cable. If everything was going well by the time we got to Eldorado, most of the Engineers would trade off, and have you run the 2nd half of the trip. Sometimes they would have you do the whole trip, and they would go back and fix problems that popped up along the way. If you had to pick up or set out an engine, I'd be out on the ground hooking up hoses & cables, and helping with the air brake test. If a unit came in low on water, we'd spot it at the hydrant, and I'd get the hose, stick it in the expansion tank, and fill it up. Lots of things between here and there that could happen, and for the most part, a fireman was a good thing to have along. You just don't go back to the 2nd unit and camp out, when there was work to do, that's what your were there. Plus the engineer made less money when he had a fireman along, so I kinda felt obligated to help him out if I could, and eliminate as much delay as I could for myself at the same time. And, there were time when the head brakeeman needed help with a switch or derail, or cleaning out ice and snow. It just sped things up if I could get out and help with some of those things too..

wigwag Wrote:
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> They got to keep there jobs
> until they retired.

Not necessarily. California had a full crew law until put to the voters in 1964 under Prop. No. 17. The proposition, sponsored by the railroads operating in the state, sought to remove the fireman. It passed and the railroads no longer had to crew a fireman. There was an article in Trainline, the SP Historical magazine, where the author, who hired out as a fireman on steam, was offered severance or an opportunity to transfer to another craft. He took the buyout. So here was a case where a fireman didn't get to keep his job until he retired.

The railroads did retain and continued to crew fireman, but only for the purpose of training in order to become a locomotive engineer. At the time there were no simulators in which to train. It was expected that the fireman would eventually take promotion after a certain period. The problem for fireman after 1964 is that the railroad didn't need that many to train because it wasn't expected that the retirement rate among engineers would very high. Therefore fireman with low seniority were not offered or retained on the fireman's board.

After looking at the one in the SP rotary at Train Mountain on display there and reading instructions on how to fire it think it was befor that era. This one was only for accesorys such as heat for the windshild and such as it has traction motors now and main boiler removed.
Also was in a corner with little room around it to do anything so the ones in Diesels had to be about the same way.

Some agreement long ago during the RR consoladations some crew was displaced but union agreements remained. There answere to it was a hotel room in I think Wenatchee WA where they had to spend there work time in. Dont know what that was about but am sure someone knows about that.  It was a way to pressure those workers into quitting as I was told becuase they couldnt be laid of or fired.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Consider automatic burner and water level control
> three days removed from the Jurassic era, they got
> better
> by the time the E units hit 7 or so but the early
> controls were often unreliable.
>
> Out



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/17 08:25 by BAB.

LocoPilot750 Wrote:
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> I fired a lot out of Emporia, KS. The RFE there
> expected the firemen to earn their keep.


On the other hand, in the 60's Bill Brosnan of the Southern hired feeble old men to be fireman, often black, just to try to prove his point  that they weren't needed.  One said his only duty was sit in the jump seat and eat his lunch.

BAB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... Some agreement long ago during the RR
> consoladations some crew was displaced but union
> agreements remained. There answere to it was a
> hotel room in I think Wenatchee WA where they had
> to spend there work time in. Dont know what that
> was about but am sure someone knows about that. 
> It was a way to pressure those workers into
> quitting as I was told becuase they couldnt be
> laid of or fired.

Are you thinking of SP's infamous "rubber room"?  See the two comments by "topper" here-  <http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,147297,147382#msg-147382&gt;

mapboy

mapboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BAB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... Some agreement long ago during the RR
> > consoladations some crew was displaced but
> union
> > agreements remained. There answere to it was a
> > hotel room in I think Wenatchee WA where they
> had
> > to spend there work time in. Dont know what
> that
> > was about but am sure someone knows about
> that. 
> > It was a way to pressure those workers into
> > quitting as I was told becuase they couldnt be
> > laid of or fired.
>
> Are you thinking of SP's infamous "rubber room"?
>  See the two comments by "topper" here-  
>

BN had several of them for clerks. That was after they tried to force clerks into whatever they were told to do. That lasted until a clerk was killed while cutting up scrap freight cars (yes, literally! Here's how you turn on a cutting torch - go to work).

TAW

LocoPilot750.  Very good description of fireman duties.  Quite similar to my routine when I was on the BN in Lincoln, NE in the early eighties.  Your description of going back to check engines while moving reminded me of a time I was on a coal load to St. Joe, Missouri.  I went back to check an alarm. If I remember correctly, it was nothing more than a ground relay reset. It was winter and in the middle of the night.  Very cold and very dark.  I was returning to the headend and walking across the back "porch" of a 40-2 doing 40 MPH when a huge gust of wind nearly blew me off the locomotive.  I got lucky and was able to catch a grab iron.  The incident taught me the lesson to never move on them again hands free.  

Kennard Britton
Bedford, TX
 

And let's not forget all those wore out old units that died for whatever reasons, and had to be drained on the fly in cold weather, so the radiators wouldn't freeze up.

Posted from Android

>When diesels replaced steam, if I remember correctly, as per union agreements, railroads were required to keep paying firemen to occupy diesel cabs despite the fact there was nothing for a fireman to do in a diesel. They got to keep there jobs until they retired.

The fireman dispute dates to the early 1920s on gas and distillate electrics. It wasn't "solved", if that's the word which can be used, until the 1970s. Firemen were usually promoted to engineer, so saying "They got to keep there jobs until they retired." is a bit inaccurate. They got to keep their jobs until they 1) got promoted to engineer, 2) retired on disability, or 3) that manning agreement, in whatever form, came into being. A fireman being offered a buyout will cause him to lose his job (and employment). If he's offered employment in a different craft, he loses the fireman's job but gains another, which means he doesn't lose employment.

I was one of the last firemen that Amtrak had.  I was the fireman on the night SLO turn.  I think it was 769/774.  But being an old man I could be wrong.  When they took the second man off the job it was the agreement that said if the run is less than six hours it was a one man job.  I got a good bump out of the deal but kept my employment.

When I retired in Dec of 2010, I still had my fireman's seniority, although I hadn't used it for twenty years. There are still a few older guys working oit of KC, who still have fireman's dates, but as they retire, it all goes away. I think 1985 was the end for any new firemen, after that, engineer trainees came from the trainmen.

Posted from Android

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
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> If he's offered
> employment in a different craft, he loses the
> fireman's job but gains another, which means he
> doesn't lose employment.

In that circumstance would your seniority in the first craft transfer to the new craft?
Or did you just lose seniority and start over in the new craft on the date you transferred in?