Steam & Excursion > Alternate Fuels

It’s said that there is no such thing as a “dumb” question, so here goes. I want to start out by saying I don’t claim to have much knowledge about railroading in general and steam railroading in particular. That is the reason I have this question. Has firing a steam engine using propane and/or liquefied natural gas ever been tried?
I know that many engines are fired by fuel oil, and I’m sure there are good reasons for using fuel oil versus LP or LNG, among them would be cost and perhaps BTU’s per gallon. One advantage I can see is if you used LP or LNG is there would be almost no smoke coming from the stack. This would make steam engines more palatable on excursions for the “greenies” (I can see some blocking tracks to protest the smoke) and residents of certain states. Steam engines are no longer common and are a valuable part of history. If it were feasible to fire them this way, it could open up steam engines for more people to see.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/17 10:43 by KY_Railfan.

KY_Railfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s said that there is no such thing as a
> “dumb” question, so here goes. I want to start
> out by saying I don’t claim to have much
> knowledge about railroading in general and steam
> railroading in particular. That is the reason I
> have this question. Has firing a steam engine
> using propane and/or liquefied natural gas ever
> been tried?
> I know that many engines are fired by fuel oil,
> and I’m sure there are good reasons for using
> fuel oil versus LP or LNG, among them would be
> cost and perhaps BTU’s per gallon. One advantage
> I can see is if you used LP or LNG is there would
> be almost no smoke coming from the stack. This
> would make steam engines more palatable on
> excursions for the “greenies” (I can see some
> blocking tracks to protest the smoke) and
> residents of certain states. Steam engines are no
> longer common and are a valuable part of history.
> If it were feasible to fire them this way, it
> could open up steam engines for more people to
> see.
>
>

Sorry to disappoint, but smoking steam engines are not exactly on the radar of any "greenies" that I know, or even have heard about.  More likely to be on the radar of local fire officials if said locomotives are not equipped with proper spark arrestors.
As for LPG or LNG, probably would work fine, except you have to tow a compress gas vehicle (modified tender or tank car) behind said locomotive. Probably more fear out there in the general community about those cars then for smoke belching locomotives. Besides, a good fireman can keep a steamer burning clean most of the time. It was kinda his job to ensure the locomotive was operating at maxium efficency. Maybe excessive smoke was more a product of poor skills by the fireman, or even poor quality fuel, then anything else.

Just a suggestion, please edit your title for the correct spelling of "Alternate", so everyone can understand what you are asking about.

As additional information, I personally think that ANY gaseous fuels would be EXTREMELY dangerous for use in any steam locomotives, due to the open flame in the firebox.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a suggestion, please edit your title for the
> correct spelling of "Alternate", so everyone can
> understand what you are asking about.
>
> As additional information, I personally think that
> ANY gaseous fuels would be EXTREMELY dangerous for
> use in any steam locomotives, due to the open
> flame in the firebox.

You'd obviously modify the locomotive so that the gaseous fuel was injected into a modified firebox, then the heat generated/exhaust gases would be used in the same way as is usual for a steam locomotive. Basically like a gas oven/gas boiler in your house....it's actually an interesting idea....a lot less pollution you'd think...

exhaustED Wrote:

> You'd obviously modify the locomotive so that the
> gaseous fuel was injected into a modified firebox,
> then the heat generated/exhaust gases would be
> used in the same way as is usual for a steam
> locomotive. Basically like a gas oven/gas boiler
> in your house....it's actually an interesting
> idea....a lot less pollution you'd think...

Maybe you should forward this idea to Cheyenne Steam Shop.

I know of smaller steam locomotives use propane. These are amusement park type operations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/17 11:50 by Grande473.

The folks at the Monticello Railroad Museum, (Ilinois) fire their ex-Southern 401 with waste oil and she runs nice and clean but can provide good smoke when required.

exprail

Waste oil is not unique with Monticello.  The Black Hills Central does the same thing.  Then of course you have the Grand Canyon, which built a spur track to the local McDonalds and pulls 4960 up to the drive-thru with an order for "all the old French Fry grease ya got!"

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions

For what it's worth, SP 4449 and the UP Steam program (prior to Dec 2010, anyway) have been using reprocessed waste oil for many, many years.

In the live steam train world, we use propane alot. My 1' scale 0-6-0 runs quite well on gas. You have to have the blower going in the station a little to keep the draught through the boiler. Remember that LNG Propane is heavier than air, so you do not want to over fire, or get a flame out. Some guys control that with a air tight bootom of the fire box, and the mixer air/gas is lit in the fire box. Would be interesting to try in a small steamer, maybe a 0-4-0. That firebox would be easy to modify.

Somewhere, I read about the Grand Canyon RR....the story I remember is that they burn used, restaurant fryer oils. 
The Grand Canyon was awarded a Seal from the EPA....as being a good, compliant, GREEN enterprise.... 
The award was in recognition that the oil they burned was being kept out of the landfills....yuck! 

I am interested in other's experience with used French fryer oil as steam loco fuel.....the supply is unlimited, with millions of gallons, everyday, going into landfills and other dumps. 

As with successful loco firing of used motor oils, the 'heat' per gallon is lower than Bunker C, but running the burner at a more rapid feed-rate should handle that problem. 

There ar jokes just waiting in the wings........ about the smells..   I will let others be inventive.  

If all the current oil burner locos burned used fryer oils, or motor oils, the 'Greenies' would pipe-down, and chase another bus... 

FWIW, IMHO, etc... 

​W. 
.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/17 19:17 by wcamp1472.

Folllowup to gaseous fuels....

THE USE OF GASEOUS FUELS FOR FULL SIZED STEAMERS IS ABSOLUTELY FRIGHTENING.
AND MUST BE PROHIBITED AT ALL COSTS....

PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT EMPTYING THE GAS THAT RAPIDLY, COATS THE STORAGE TANKS WITH A DEEP LAYER OF ICE, INSULATING THE TANK, AND ROBBING THE REMAINING LIQUID, EXPANDING-GAS OF THE HEAT NECESSARY TO CONVERT FROM THE LIQUID STATE TO A GAS......IT WONT WORK !!!!!

​W.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/17 16:37 by wcamp1472.

As I heard it, years ago the local museum in Perris CA. (OERM) fired their 2-6-2 with donated waste oil.  The air quality people shut them down because there was no way to know what you were burning; brake fluid was mentioned, I believe?

I'm glad to see my post has generated some traffic. I think the "greenies" might like the idea of using used cooking oil. I'm sure using anything other than "evil" coal  would be preferable to them.

KY_Railfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm glad to see my post has generated some
> traffic. I think the "greenies" might like the
> idea of using used cooking oil. I'm sure using
> anything other than "evil" coal  would be
> preferable to them.

Don't worry about the "greenies" as all these steam locomotives are classed by the FRA & EPA has "Historic", and are thus exempt.

Kimball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I heard it, years ago the local museum in
> Perris CA. (OERM) fired their 2-6-2 with donated
> waste oil.  The air quality people shut them down
> because there was no way to know what you were
> burning; brake fluid was mentioned, I believe?

That is why you purchase your used oil fuel from a licensed vendor who picks up the fuel from the garages, etc., processes the fuel and sells it as a "spec" fuel oil with MSDS sheets, HAZMAT instructions, the works.

10-15 year ago there were many stories of folks running their VW diesel cars on used fryer oil from their local burger joint.

I remember back in the early 70s when I was manager of the museum at Snoqualmie, WA, we had Arco's test unit on site and discovered that if you fire a steam locomtive correctly on waste oil, it puts out less emissions than a single car!

Pete

Diesel engines and 'bio-fuels'....

The challenge with unfiltered fryer oil use in Diesel engines is the clogging of the mi-nute atomizing orifices in diesel fuel injectors
used in all Diesel engines.
Using French fryer oil as fuel for Diesel engines is one of reasons that extremely fine filters must get out 99.999% of the 'solids'.
& only ultra-fine fuel can be used in the precision workings of diesels.

Using raw former restaurant oils in steamers presumes that the conventional loco oil burners and fireboxes are used.
In those cases, only the biggest chunks need to be screened-out.  The other carbon-based solids would increase the heat value of the fuel in the firebox.

This fuel, burned in steamers, is virtually free of costs ( save for collection and transportation) and if widely used, would greatly clean up the major source of methane-generating fuel that gets dumped in vast land fills across the nation.
Its millions of gallons every day....

Steam-powered commuter trains could become a more possible reality.  
Yes, the labor costs would increase, but it would provide worthwhile employment for an interested segment of the population.

​W.


 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/17 18:27 by wcamp1472.

      Bring on the coal and occassional smoke for appearance for steam engines. The ' greenies ' should allowed ( forced ) to ride on top of the first car behind the tender and enjoy the wonderful sight and odor.    :)