Steam & Excursion > "Southern" 2716

Was very excited when Southern rebuilt a Kanawa Berk into a "Southern" 2-8-4. As I recall, everyone was excited about this engine, which ran like a bat out of hell. The story about the freeze damage below on NKP 759 got me to wondering about the tragedy of the Southern 2716.

What's the real story about this engine's all-to-brief career on the Southern? All I recall is scanty details in the railfan press about some sort of catastrophic damage the engine incurred while running on the Southern, which "ruined" the engine. What happened? How bad was it? Is the engine really "ruined"?

The story I was told about "ruining" the locomotive was that a green fireman was told to drop the fire on the engine one day so, he proceeded to put the fire out with water. This led to some major warping in the firebox. 2716 was never returned to service by NS becuase they then had 611 and had no need for a second big engine.

Fast Foward to 1994 and the end of the steam program. 765 was down for major running gear repairs and the people at Fort Wayne needed an engine that would be fast to repair. The guys at Fort Wayne worked out an agreement with the Kentucky Railway Museum and the engine was towed to Ft. Wayne and restored by the fine folks there. 2716 eventually ran some break in runs along with one weekend of excursions on the T,P&W in 1995 or 96 but, with no place else to run the engine and 765 sitting in need of work, 2716 was returned home to the Kentucky Railway Museum. Today she is on dispay in New Haven, KY and unless CSX becomes very excursion friendly and KRM feels like dropping the money on the engine, it is not likely to run in the near future.

How does this sort of dreck get started?

Tom Moore, GM of the Clinchfield Railroad, leased C&O 2716 from KRM in 1978 to supplement CRR's 4-6-0 no. 1. The engine was towed to Marion, NC, where Marion Machine Works crews were supposed to overhaul it.

Gary Bensman looked at the engine while in Marion and declared it a "basket case." Work never got started beyond parts-stripping, and when Mr. Moore was found with his hand in the cookie jar, CRR's steam program came to an end.

Back it went to Louisville in 1980. Enter Bill Purdie, looking for an engine to replace T&P 610 and CPR 2839 (both leased, both to be returned to their owners at the end of 1980). The goal was to have the engine ready by the time the 1981 NRHS Convention was planned for Louisville.

But it quickly became obvious Gary was right, and even with KRM volunteers coming down to Irondale to help, 2716 took too much work. (It didn't help that 4501 failed in April, and shop crews had to spend time tearing into its smokebox, where they discovered a crack in the front flue sheet.)

2716 made it out of the shop in October 1981, and ran for the last six or so weekends of the season. It got more work over the winter.

The biggest problem was firebox cracks - new cracks were opening regularly, and crews would spend the week between excursions chasing them. (If you've heard stories about dropping fires, this is the reason, and it wasn't some "green fireman" - it was on Purdie's order. The only crew out with the engine in 1981 and 1982 were Purdie, Paul Brock, and Bill Magee - none of them "green.") 2716 returned to Birmingham in July, under its own steam, hauling a freight, at track speed.

FWRRHS did put 2716 back to work (so much for "catastrophic" damage on the Southern), and it wasn't "work needed on 765" or "no place to run" that sidelined it. Firebox concerns, and an FRA requirement that FWRRHS pull the lagging and jacketing for an external inspection (which they decided not to do) were the cause.

2716 would need a new throat sheet, maybe more firebox work, some shoe work, brake overhauls, and a fair bit of other work to be roadworthy again.

JAC

Thanks for that great info. Too mad such a beautiful loco is all dressed up with no place to go.

Back in May 1982 I rode behind 2716 on a Knoxville-Chattanooga,TN excursion that was assisted by a GP30 diesel.I remember a long stop because of some problem and our car host speaking about trouble on the saturday trip the day before.He said the train encountered a heavy rain storm and afterward the crew had trouble keeping steam up on the 2716,that was when the GP30 was added to the train.His words were "It rained so hard it almost put 2716's fire out".

More dreck. I have just spent 15 minutes on the floor laughing. Rained so hard it almost put the fire out. Yeah.

1996 Logansport, IN

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Another shot, 1996.

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Another

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Last run of the weekend in 1996.

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Pulling 100 car loaded grain train on its break in on the TP&W.

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@ Sunrise

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So...the engine isn't in really as bad of shape as I'd been led to believe. I guess, somehow, I missed the trips of the C&O 2716 (no...I don't know everything!!!).

In general comment, it sounds like the C&O 2716, should the need arise to make her roadworthy again, would need a rebuild of a slightly less substantial nature than the 844 recently received.

Now...a question: which part is the throat sheet? That sounds like a high-dollar item.

Thanks for setting us straight:)

Sometimes I wonder where people come up with this stuff too:(

Thanks for letting us in on the real story.

AT Fort Wayne, we anticipated that we would be able to get several yearly extensions on the 2716's tubes (less than 30 days actual service I think, without looking up the monthly and annual reports). We did extensive firebox work, and there WERE some nasty cracks. Kim Besecker and Tom Stephens did some pretty fancy boiler work on the 2716. We got lots of things tuned up and she was in pretty good shape for the first season, 1996. Future winter work would have included new springs, she was sitting from 1" to 4" low (I can't remember whether it was the front or back that was 4" low.) If you looked at her from the side, you could see that the frame of the pony truck was not at the right angle. Just for the heck of it, CMO Steve Winicker jacked up the frame, front and back, and everything "looked" right once again. Had we kept going with her we would have done progressive winter maintenance to get her up to standards for 70 mph. BUT, the Gettysburg boiler explosion occurred and our FRA inspector wanted to be ahead of the curve - even before "new" regulations were promulgated and in legal force - and he wouldn't approve an otherwise routine 1 year extension. We even appealed to regional HQ that it was arbitrary, but in the interest of "public safety" his rejection stood. The whole issue was re-examined, and it made little sense to us to do a complete jacket and tube job on the 2716. If we were going to put in that kind of effort, we would do it on our own 765. It was disappointing how little mention was made of her 1996 service on the TP&W, when she was finally under steam with completely accurate C&O lettering, numbering, and details. Our best outside help was Paul Keller at Washington Court House, Ohio, and C&O fan Fred Hessdorfer(sp?) of Cincinnati.

If I recall correctly, the proposed 1997 ops for the engine included a return to Logansport and some other regional running around northern Indiana. As I recall, the Logansport train trips fell apart due to squabbles between the town and the railroad, and the rest of the schedule never materialized either. So, even if the 2716 was ready to go in 1997 it wasn't certain that it had anywhere to run. Do I remember that correctly?

Chris J.

NKP779 Wrote:
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> AT Fort Wayne, we anticipated that we would be
> able to get several yearly extensions on the
> 2716's tubes (less than 30 days actual service I
> think, without looking up the monthly and annual
> reports). We did extensive firebox work, and
> there WERE some nasty cracks. Kim Besecker and
> Tom Stephens did some pretty fancy boiler work on
> the 2716. We got lots of things tuned up and she
> was in pretty good shape for the first season,
> 1996. Future winter work would have included new
> springs, she was sitting from 1" to 4" low (I
> can't remember whether it was the front or back
> that was 4" low.) If you looked at her from the
> side, you could see that the frame of the pony
> truck was not at the right angle. Just for the
> heck of it, CMO Steve Winicker jacked up the
> frame, front and back, and everything "looked"
> right once again. Had we kept going with her we
> would have done progressive winter maintenance to
> get her up to standards for 70 mph. BUT, the
> Gettysburg boiler explosion occurred and our FRA
> inspector wanted to be ahead of the curve - even
> before "new" regulations were promulgated and in
> legal force - and he wouldn't approve an otherwise
> routine 1 year extension. We even appealed to
> regional HQ that it was arbitrary, but in the
> interest of "public safety" his rejection stood.
> The whole issue was re-examined, and it made
> little sense to us to do a complete jacket and
> tube job on the 2716. If we were going to put in
> that kind of effort, we would do it on our own
> 765. It was disappointing how little mention was
> made of her 1996 service on the TP&W, when she
> was finally under steam with completely accurate
> C&O lettering, numbering, and details. Our
> best outside help was Paul Keller at Washington
> Court House, Ohio, and C&O fan Fred
> Hessdorfer(sp?) of Cincinnati.


I'm sorry your plans were derailed (hopefully only temporarily?). I realize that NKP765 is top priority. But it sounds like a lot of good preliminary work was done that stands the 2716 in good stead for a day when maybe it can be brought up to standards, after the 765 is set up and running. Hopefully, it is being kept undercover, and maintained to an extent for when the day comes that you have money and resources to "finish the job"?

Rumors about Logansport & the railroads were wrong. It all hinged on the 2716 boiler extension. When that didn't go, neither did the 2716. Logansport was quite anxious to have us return. A live steamer was a good draw for their event.

Status of the 2716 in Kentucky could be better reported by somebody there.

For the 2716 to run again, it would take a full 15 year boiler job, no small task. Running gear was very good on that engine with good tires and bearings, other than the springs being tired. We had even replaced several of the wheelsets on the tender. There is more firebox work needed to upgrade its overall condition. As to future plans, look to the KRM.

One anecdote about Advisory Mechanical Committee 2-8-4's. We had accepted as gospel that the C&O and NKP engines were almost identical, other than steam and sand domes being reversed, and the cab being about 1 foot longer on the K-4 class - and their boosters. But we expected that the boilers were identical. While replacing staybolts on the side sheets of the 2716, we just thought we'd use some of the 765's spare stock. The NKP bolts are too short to use in the C&O 2716! The side sheets are further apart on the C&O and they won't interchange!