Nostalgia & History > The SP Mystique--What Made it So Special?

After having been a member of TO.com for a couple of years, I need to ask the question: just what IS the big deal about the Southern Pacific?

It's very clear that a whole lot of TO.com subscribers revere the memory of the SP above all other fallen flags, and I'd like to hear from some of you who do just why.

As an Easterner, I never took much notice of the SP aside from stuff like the Daylight trains, and in later years, the railroad's relentless attempt to downgrade and discourage passenger service. From my viewpoint, SP ran at least second in all-around class to the Santa Fe among western carriers. But clearly you folks saw something that I never had the opportunity to experience.

I'd apprciate hearing your thoughts on what made SP special.

Art House

I would suspect that California membership on T O exceeds any other state. Just as I am partial to the T&P (I'm in Texas) they are partial to a road they grew up around. Naturally the more of them that there are, the more you are going to hear from them about the SP--perfectly normal. Just my 2 cents worth.

There was a thread awhile back on this same topic with many responses... will see if I can find it.

Here it is... 6 pages long! (You asked for it!)

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1136986,page=1

Mark

The magic of the SP was its PEOPLE, a great bunch of folks who banded together and made impossible things happen on a regular basis. No other railroad served so many different areas with vastly different operating challenges yet the folks on Market Street had a unique way of always keeping the railroad alive.

The SP will always be missed.

I always thought it was an underdawg thing surrounded by UP and ATSF much like the EL in the east (my favorite) having central to north and PRR south and eventually surrounded. EL too had great people really nice ticket agents and crews I remember being a little kid and they were always willing to talk once I even got a tour of cab great time for a 7yr old in 1972. My 2 cents

SP was one of a handful of railroads that dominated mountain railroading. UP did have a few "mountains" to cross back in the day, but if you really look at the big picture, it didn't have that many up until it acquired SP and the Rio Grande lines.

Yardmaster

Seems to me that there are many aspects of the SP and each has a large following, combining these numbers together makes the myth or mystique. Each of these aspects can be found in followers of other RR's, often related to the hometown RR effect. The simple immensity of the Western US attracts many because of the size, the scenery, the diversity, the seasons, the photographic opportunities, the many stories and legends as the West developed, which the CP/SP was directly involved in (note the UP/GN/NP would be less influential on the whole but of great effect in an individual situation). In contrast, a large number of devoted followers prefer the smaller street running and branchline operations, which seems to parallel the 'baby boomer' population growth especially in the Los Angeles area where many of the more dedicated followers concentrate their attention (these are not often seen on TO due to the broad nature of this discussion site) and often include the AT&SF. Combining all these different aspects with western US history, emerging technologies of the camera and the automobile, the changes in discretionary income, in discretionary free time and especially the population growth influences the popularity.

My two cents says the Candian RR's have more avid followers, with more acute historical detail gathering, almost stalking. My interest is specifically the mountain operations. I've followed the activity of other RR's but the scenery, the mountains specifically with a lesser note to the commodity (mining or lumber) seems to have been the 'hook'.

mwbridgwater Wrote:
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> There was a thread awhile back on this same topic
> with many responses... will see if I can find it.
>
> Here it is... 6 pages long! (You asked for it!)
>
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1
> 136986,page=1
>
> Mark

Many thanks, Mark. There were some wonderful photos and in-depth and revealing reflections in there.

Art House

I don't know that there's any unified-field theory as to why one favors a railroad over another, and if you were to ask the question say 30, 50 or 75 years ago you might get an entirely different answer for an entirely different reason. With this in mind I think to answer part of your question as to who favored Santa Fe over SP boils down to:

Do you like freight or passenger. If freight, then SP because of the operational difficulties. If passenger, then ATSF because they ran fast, frequent and good to the last drop.

aehouse Wrote:
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> After having been a member of TO.com for a couple
> of years, I need to ask the question: just what IS
> the big deal about the Southern Pacific?

Cab-Forwards
Daylight GS-3s and GS-4s
Articulated Diners and Coaches
Snowsheds
Donner Pass
Norden, With a Turntable Inside a Snowshed
Tehachapi Loop
Horseshoe Curve
Original Transcontinental Railroad
>
>

> From my viewpoint, SP ran at least second in
> all-around class to the Santa Fe among western
> carriers.

By the mid 1960s, I'd say it was a distant third, behind the Santa Fe and Union Pacific. Of course, the SP at it's very worst was never half as bad as today's UP. SP hated passenger trains, but I don't recall them ever being more than an hour or so late (except in emergency situations).

You know in My hometown of Pomona, CA I had all 3 west coast Class 1's running thru it. SP, UP and Santa Fe. The SP was always my favorite. They not only ran the most trains, but also had the coolest wayside equipment by far. All the CTC signaling and control equipment was at least 40 years old and had character to it. Also the dirty engines defiantly had character too. Also the station in Pomona, (which is still there and restored) the most architecturally interesting. Now the Santa Fe still had there 30's and 40's era ABS system in place, which would make it my second favorite. Like I said, the SP ran more trains. So I guess it does come down to the hometown effect and who's trains you saw the most.

For me, first and foremost was the Daylight and it's beautiful colors. SP ran it behind steam right up to the mid-50's, which added to it's lure.

Big, 20 cylinder SD's were another attraction. Always a fan of oscillating lights no matter what the railroad...spectacular especially after dark!

SP will always be missed in my eyes..

Are we headed for another six-page thread?!!! (I don't mind... SP lover that I am!).

Mark

I missed that April thread with six pages, but here's my two cents. What got my into SP as a teenage railfan living in was Lucius Beebe's book "The Central and Southern Pacific Railroads" which had wonderful black and white photos of the Coast Line and the Cab Forwards as well as the April 1972 which had a beautiful color center spread of the GS-4 Daylight locomotive. Wonderful stuff for an impressionable youth!

I went to college in Santa Barbara where I could see the SP firsthand. Somehow, the SP of the 1970s it was not the glorious SP depicted in the Beebe book. I did skip a class to see the GS-4 painted in bicentennial colors pull the return trip of the American Freedom Train, but again, it was just not the same as what I saw in Model Railroader. Additionally, I only went out a few times to watch trains because the traffic levels were never very high and I did not have a car to see other parts of the SP which had more train traffic.

But...

It was nice to ride in an SP dome on the Coast Starlight (I also learned about these from a Model Railroader article).

The 16th St Station in Oakland had those wonderful paintings in the waiting room.

When I did ride the Coast Starlight in the 1970s and enjoyed the magnificent scenery between Santa Barbara and Los Angeles and Santa Barbara and Oakland.

All those lights on the front of the SP locomotives were pretty cool.

The train orders for the locomotive and caboose crew placed on hoops at the Santa Barbara was not something I've seen anywhere else before or since.

The bloody nose scheme was on the SP diesels was certainly different - what was that design supposed to represent?

Lots and lots of SD-45s.

But it was after leaving California and then returning on a number of subsequent trips even during the post-SP era that I really got to appreciate the SP.

I realize this is subjective, but I feel that SP had, overall, the best looking steam locomotives of any railroad. And I was fortunate to see the Cab Forward in Sacramento, 2467, and 4449 all under steam at the 1999 Railfare and later in 2002 and 2005 ride on fan trips pulled by 2472 and 4449.

At the Railfare, I also got to see a GP-9 painted in the Black Widow scheme, which is also a fascinating design as well as the Daylight SP E-9.

In 1986 and 2002, I rode the Zephyr over Donner Pass. Its a beautiful route and the rich history of this line's construction (also described in vivid detail in the Beebe book) is another facet of the railroad's mystique.

I rode on the San Jose - San Francisco commute line in 1975 and was not very impressed. However during subsequent trips in the 1990s and 2000s I noticed the eclectic collection of train station architecture on the CalTrain commute line - a wonderful way to preserve SP's legacy.

This year, I got to "experience" the the Sunset Route when I visited the former SP station in San Antonio. The stained glass windows are awesome.

I'm currently reading Richard Orsi's book "Sunset Limited" which covers, in amazing detail, SP's positive influences on the development of the West.

By the way, Steamscenes always does a first rate job on its SP Calendar.

Dave

In addition to all the preceding, don't forget the beautiful chime whistles on SP steam, silver painted boiler faces with hooded headlights slightly below center, giving locomotives what seemed like a face with an eye (almost alive) and lower quadrant semaphore signals.

I never knew any other railroad until the Lane County Draft Board thought I should see the world.

The SP ran through my backyard. I took pics of cab forwards, Shasta Daylight, F units, PFE 44t.

Daughters of SP employees baby sat me.

By the time I was a teenager I was cashing SP paychecks in my Dad's store when they would pay their monthly tab for groceries.

When I first got away from home it was yellow I saw. It was interesting but I still liked the SP. Today I can't stand yellow on SP rails but it doesn't bother me a bit to go to Weber Canyon, Cima Hill, or the Gorge and watch yellow where it "belongs."

jb

> All those lights on the front of the SP
> locomotives were pretty cool.
>
> The train orders for the locomotive and caboose
> crew placed on hoops at the Santa Barbara was not
> something I've seen anywhere else before or
> since.
>
>
> Lots and lots of SD-45s.


Especially neat was when a southbound freight stopped just west of Chapalla Avenue waiting for a meet with the mid-day Coast Starlight. As soon as it's light appeared in the distance, the freight would start moving slowly past the station, picking up it's orders from the hoop in front of waiting passengers. Quite a show!

Also, you didn't need a scanner when rail fanning at the station. You always knew when a train was coming by taking a peek at the train orders hoop. Sadly, it was removed in the mid-80's, I believe. Those were the days!

DutchDoor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> aehouse Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > After having been a member of TO.com for a
> couple
> > of years, I need to ask the question: just what
> IS
> > the big deal about the Southern Pacific?
>
> Cab-Forwards
> Daylight GS-3s and GS-4s
> Articulated Diners and Coaches
> Snowsheds
> Donner Pass
> Norden, With a Turntable Inside a Snowshed
> Tehachapi Loop
> Horseshoe Curve
>

Horseshoe Curve?? That's in Altoona PA, last time I looked.
C.

Carol Voss
Bakersfield, CA

This is all very interesting, but I'm really surprised that no other railroad had friendly employees, ran through anybody's home town, employed family members, or had interesting power.

jasonlowe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is all very interesting, but I'm really
> surprised that no other railroad had friendly
> employees, ran through anybody's home town,
> employed family members, or had interesting power.

Jason,

Indeed they did almost all of them :)

I come from a Santa Fe family, grandfather was a conductor, mother was a clerk/telegrapher and an uncle who was a clerk. I myself went into rail transit for over 20 years. However, even within our Santa Fe family the SP was something special. I think a lot of it was just how encompassing the SP was, especially in California, Nevada and Oregon. Peopel just knew other folks that worked for the SP, or rode the SP. It was loved and reviled, sometimes in the same sentance. I'm sure it could be said ofr almost any carrier anywhere in the country, they were all special places.

J.