Nostalgia & History > UP DC-10 Wing Cars

I am seeking out information on this rather unique consignment and thought here is a good one for the nostalgic researchers on Train Orders. Perhaps the UPHS has a publication on this subject and, if so, would appreciate the referal.

First of all, I am wondering how many of these cars were in existence? I do not have access to a OER. I expect they travelled in pairs (for the obvious reason) though production delays and completion could have seen a set of wings go separately. [Wouldn't Douglas have been a little disgruntled if upon delivery they got two lefts or two rights? ... doh!)

That leads to the next question, when was the production period for the DC10? More importantly, when did the wing start getting shipped? A friend was saying that the design stage commenced in the late 60ies but production may have commenced in 1972. Did the subcontract work continue after the DC-10 was superceded? - whenever that was?

I once heard that the subcontractor for the DC10 wings was Spar Aerospace in Southern Ontario. Can anyone confirm this? I know Spar did the arm for the Space Shuttle, so it is concievable that they were large enough to be a subcontractor for Douglas Corporation wings. Does anyone have any idea of the routing for this consignment? and if they came from Southern Ontario?

Assuming all of this to be true, then my speculation on the routing would have been down the Ontario part of the Quebec/Windsor corridor, through the Detroit Tunnel, on to Chicago, Omaha and the rest of the way on the UP to the LA Basin.

Thanks for any help.

Rick
Akanuknoz

rschonfelder Wrote:
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> I once heard that the subcontractor for the DC10
> wings was Spar Aerospace in Southern Ontario. Can
> anyone confirm this? I know Spar did the arm for
> the Space Shuttle, so it is concievable that they
> were large enough to be a subcontractor for
> Douglas Corporation wings. Does anyone have any
> idea of the routing for this consignment? and if
> they came from Southern Ontario?

I think this excerpt from a Canadian government aerospace history site has the answer:

In the mid-1960s and early 1970s the Canadian industry's second tier was strengthened as the two leading U.S. commercial aircraft primes established build-to-print branch plants with mandates to produce major substructures for their aircraft. Douglas Aircraft took over the former A.V. Roe facility at Malton (from de Havilland) and, with it, the production of wings for its DC-9 family of commercial transport aircraft. As the world market for DC-9s skyrocketed in 1967-68, the Malton plant once again became one of the largest employers in the Canadian industry. By 1969 the Douglas Canada facility had won the mandate to produce wings for the company's new DC-10 commercial jet, which entered airline service in 1971. In 1972 Boeing began airliner parts production at its new Winnipeg plant, which was built during a period of drastic layoffs in the company's U.S. commercial manufacturing operations.

I worked at Spar for over a decade and never heard anything about airliner wing section build-to-print construction in any unit. I also have a copy of the company's official history (published in 1992) and there is no mention of such work.

The only connection was that Spar was also spun off from de Havilland (1969). It had been the Special Products and Applied Research division, hence the name.

Ray

Rick,

I grabbed a few references that I had handy here in my office to get you started (see below).


> ...how many of these cars were in existence?

You mentioned UP in your heading, I show that they had a total of 8 cars, numbered 229580-229587. As info, Douglas also had some cars of the same design, numbered DCCX 1001-1006. In a photo of DCCX 1002, it appears that the build date is Oct 1969, but it's not clear enough to be sure.

There were also the 60' "idler cars". I show that UP had at least 9 of those, numbered 259554-259560, 259564, 259573. There may have been others, including possibly some DCCX cars, I'm not sure there.


> I expect they travelled in pairs

I would imagine that's correct for the wing cars in most cases, except when cars went bad order en-route, etc. Of course, when wing cars moved, they'd always be accompanied by an idler, so you'd have something like "wing-idler-wing" or "wing-idler" if only one wing car. When 2 wing cars were moving together, the idler cars would travel between them, providing "overhang" clearance for the wings. The idlers would also carry a large, non-standard-sized parts container as well. As info, idler cars could be seen traveling alone at times, without the wing gons.


> ... Does anyone have any idea of the routing for this consignment? and if they came from Southern Ontario?

I'm a little fuzzy on the route east of Chicago, but my best guess would be CN to Port Huron then GTW to Chicago (Blue Isl); that assumes CN was the RR that served the plant, is that correct? Beyond Chicago, I'm sure shipments were handled by the RI via Silvis & Des Moines to Council Bluffs where they were interchanged to the UP for furtherance to Long Beach. Info I have indicates that the cars, when moving loaded on the RI (at least) were to be handled on the head-end of trains only.

By the way, I've been looking for a set of those cars in HO scale (Overland Models late-1990s run) so if anyone knows where I might find a set, please let me know. Thanks.

Take care,

Mark

When these cars were not being used they were stored in Torrance CA. Douglas had a large plant in Torrance Ca at the corner of 190th st and Normandie. This plant was served by the former PE torrance branch and also the Santa Fe harbor sub. The plant was torn down in the mid 90's and replaced by first a car dealer now a Walmart and warehouses and offices. When plane production slowed down these cars were stored on a in plant spur near 190th. Seems that the cars didn't move for years.

There's a picture of a set of these cars in the book "UP Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, Vol 2". The caption reads:

"In 1971 eight very unique cars were constructed by Maxson to carry DC-10 aircraft wing sections from eastern fabricators to west coast assembly plants. These G-50-15 class cars with only a 30-ton capacity had roller bearing trucks and a Freightsaver 12" cushion underframe. Even at 88 feet in length, there was an end overhand when loaded, so they trveled in pairs with a common idler car between thm. Loaded cars 229586 and 229587 with their idler are shown at Council Bluffs on May 5, 1974."

In the photo, these 2 gondolas are painted armour yellow with the UP shield on both sides with UP and Cushioned Load lettering.

The car class and series information is confirmed by my copy of a UP Freight Car Diagram book from the late 1970's. The number series was 229580-229587.

A few more items to add to this, regarding MD's DC-10 production:

Jan 1968 - production started,
July 23, 1970 - first off production line,
Aug 29, 1970 - maiden flight
Aug 5, 1971 - first commercial flight (American Airlines),
December 1988 - last off production line,
July 1989 - last aircraft delivered,

A total of 446 of that "family" of aircraft were built, 386 DC-10s and 60 KC-10s (Air Force refueling tankers). As far as wings, it appears there were at least two basic variations, some with a 155'4" (total) wingspan and others with a 165'4" span. I'd guess that both would fit on the original gon/idler arrangement without modification.

Production of the follow-on model (MD-11) started in 1990 and ended in 1998 - does anyone know who supplied the wings for those planes?

I searched around a bit but couldn't locate any info on annual production numbers for the D/KC-10s at Long Beach. If anyone can find that info, could you please post it? Thanks.

Take care,

Mark

Great information and glad I asked. I was hoping someone from SPAR would read it and they have and clarified my misconception. I didn't know about the DCCX ownership so these two facts have made the posting worthwhile. Also, wondering if the cars are still around.

These aircraft industry consignments are unique and interesting. I know Boeing still to this day move fuselage's (B737) out of KC bound for Seattle and you see it regularly on the MRL. In the pre (BN) merger both the GN and NP carried those unique Boeing cars but they are no where near as interesting looking as the UP DC10 car.

In all of the books that are available from Morning Sun and others, there has never been any action photos (that I have seen) with these UP cars in the train consist. As the consignment originated in Southern Ontario, I would have thought there would be photos somewhere which would give a hint of the routing eg. CP vs. CN; and how they got to the UP through the eastern part of USA routing. If anyone can point me to a photo they know of in a Pictorial, let me know. I am now aware of the UP freight car books so thanks for those references. This would be a good topic for the UP Streamliner if anyone is out there.

I highly doubt they were consigned over the Western Pacific but a "Model Railroader's" license may allow otherwise.

Rick
Akanuknoz

> ... wondering if the cars are still around.


Rick,

Not sure about today, but as of last summer there were still a few around. I saw one of them in use (MOW service) on the former DRGW near Bond, CO, for example.


> These aircraft industry consignments are unique and interesting. I know Boeing still to this day move fuselage's (B737) out of KC bound for Seattle and you see it regularly on the MRL. In the pre (BN) merger both the GN and NP carried those unique Boeing cars


> I've come across another aircraft parts movement from the same era that I'm curious about. It was a 60' GN flat in the 607XX series with one of those big covers on it (very much like the LBF HO models) that moved west across the RI Chicago to Co. Bluffs, then UP to Ogden then SP up to Oregon/Wash to Boeing. I can provide the car number and date if anyone's curious, but does anyone have any idea what that may have been carrying or if it was a regular move? I imagine the routing must have been dictated by clearances (very tall loads), but can't say for sure. Any ideas?



> ... there has never been any action photos (that I have seen) with these UP cars in the train consist.

"UP Motive Power Review 1968-77" has a shot of a westbound train with a set of DC-10 cars, near Frost, CA in Oct '76. I also have a shot of the wing cars on a train near Green River, WY in '72 that a photographer was kind enough to share with me - the aluminum color on the ends of the cars was still shining brightly in the sun in that photo since the cars were nearly new at that time.


> ... If anyone can point me to a photo they know of in a Pictorial, let me know.

Just curious, are you looking specifically for photos or rather just information that would pin down the routing? I have very specific info on the movement of the cars over the RI and UP, if that's what you're looking for. However, as I'd mentioned, I'm fuzzy on the routing east of Chicago so I can't offer much help there...

Take care,

Mark

Why were they routed west of Chicago on the RI? No clearance issues? No interline switching/connections in Chicago? How good was the RI track in the early 70's anyway?
Just curious,
Clarence

mamfahr Wrote:

>
> "UP Motive Power Review 1968-77" has a shot of a
> westbound train with a set of DC-10 cars, near
> Frost, CA in Oct '76. I also have a shot of the
> wing cars on a train near Green River, WY in '72
> that a photographer was kind enough to share with
> me - the aluminum color on the ends of the cars
> was still shining brightly in the sun in that
> photo since the cars were nearly new at that time.
>

I found that photo in the book you mentioned. I have not looked in that book for near on 20 years. It is funny that the captions make no mention of the loads behind the loco consist; just talk of the units. Back then, I wish I took more photos of freight cars but being a University student I was lucky to have money for film so it was spent wisely.


>
> Just curious, are you looking specifically for
> photos or rather just information that would pin
> down the routing? I have very specific info on
> the movement of the cars over the RI and UP, if
> that's what you're looking for. However, as I'd
> mentioned, I'm fuzzy on the routing east of
> Chicago so I can't offer much help there...
>
Mark. So it did travel on the Rock did it? I didn't even know that. As the other fellow mentioned, I wouldn't have thought the Rock would have good condition in its' roadbed to be entrusted with an expensive consignment like this. I had assumed it went on the C&NW.

East of Chicago, I am guessing that it went on the GT/CN but no one up in that part seems to have any information.

Any chance you can share your information on the Rock routing?

Rick

Clarence Wrote:
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> Why were they routed west of Chicago on the RI?
> No clearance issues? No interline
> switching/connections in Chicago? How good was
> the RI track in the early 70's anyway?
> Just curious,
> Clarence

Perhaps the same question applies to why the Rock handled GM auto parts from Chicago to the UP connection at Council Bluffs. Being on the south side of Chicago, the Rock had the best connections to eastern roads, like Grand Trunk, Erie, Penn Central, and N&W. They may have saved several hours, if not a whole day, on shipping over the Rock versus the CNW.

> ... So it did travel on the Rock did it? I didn't even know that. As the other fellow mentioned, I wouldn't have thought the Rock would
have good condition in its' roadbed to be entrusted with an expensive consignment like this. I had assumed it went on the C&NW.


Rick & Clarence,

Around 1970, RI's running times were as good as anyone else's in the Chicago - Co. Bluffs corridor, with the exception of the CBQ/BN route where running times were faster because of their generally good track (always had passenger traffic). Throughout the '70s though, the RI's track deteriorated somewhat, but not as much as you'd think (the MILW was the big loser in that decade). The real issue in that corridor was the emergence of the CNW from a "mid-pack" contender to the clear leader. CNW upgraded track on much of their route, significantly reducing running times (especially eastbound) but just as important was their participation in new train services (Falcons, etc) and schedule revisions (such as perishable trains, along with UP, SP & CR), etc. that drastically cut running times & attracted traffic from competitors. So,I'd say RI's track wouldn't have been the key issue for the wing cars (their track was "adequate"), most likely other factors drove the decision on the routing (primarily RI's direct connections through the Chicago gateway, I'd say...).


> Any chance you can share your information on the Rock routing?

What I have are records from RI's dispatcher's office in Des Moines that show (from certain months) car numbers, routing, when the cars moved, on what train, dimensions, etc. It's not a complete record for the 70s but is enough to piece together a good picture of how the cars were handled. The reason those records appeared on the dispatcher's sheets is because the wing cars / idlers were considered "high/wide loads", which required documentation on the dispatcher's side of things. That's where I noticed that the idler/container cars sometimes moved alone (mentioned in a previous post) and also discovered the GN car with the Boeing shipment (also mentioned in prev. post).

Given the years that the DC-10s were produced, wings would have been moving after the RI went under. I'm not sure how they were routed after 1980 (RI shutdown) but I'm almost certain it wasn't via CNW. Does anyone happen to know the routing in the 1980s?

Take care,

Mark

I have uploaded a few images of UP aircraft-related cars.
First up, an image of UP 229582 on a westbound UP/CNW freight in Elmhurst, IL. This was probably taken in the early 1990's. Interesting to note the flatcar with smaller wings behind and the idler flat in front of the big wing.

Second photo is of UP 52790(I think). The photo is taken in Proviso, IL as the GT delivers a cut of cars to the CNW. Were there smaller wings built at the same location as the DC10 wings?

Third photo is not related to wings but does show part of a tail assembly(?). This car was on a UP freight somewhere in Missouri in the late 1980's. We used to see the big wing gons heading west out of St. Louis on one of the priority freights (maybe ASKC).

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mamfahr Wrote:
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> What I have are records from RI's dispatcher's
> office in Des Moines that show (from certain
> months) car numbers, routing, when the cars moved,
> on what train, dimensions, etc. It's not a
> complete record for the 70s but is enough to piece
> together a good picture of how the cars were
> handled. The reason those records appeared on the
> dispatcher's sheets is because the wing cars /
> idlers were considered "high/wide loads", which
> required documentation on the dispatcher's side of
> things. That's where I noticed that the
> idler/container cars sometimes moved alone
> (mentioned in a previous post) and also discovered
> the GN car with the Boeing shipment (also
> mentioned in prev. post).

Mark,

I seem to recall seeing these cars "first out" (right behind the power) on #43 across Illinois.

I'm guessing they did not move on #57 because of the high/wide issues ("Be governed by Rule 110, items...") that might have slowed "The Big Train" down. Does this correspond to your data?

I had also heard many times from employees those cars came off the GTW at Blue Island, for what that's worth.

Best,

NZ

P.S. Will we see you at the RITS/GM&O convention this year?

> I seem to recall seeing these cars "first out" (right behind the power) on #43 across Illinois.

Yup, from what I've seen, the cars moved westbound on the headend of 43 in most cases.


> I'm guessing they did not move on #57 because of the high/wide issues ("Be governed by Rule 110, items...") that might have slowed "The Big Train" down. Does this correspond to your data?

Not sure why they didn't run them regularly on 57, except maybe that blocking didn't dictate it. Per the RI & UP op. plans, 43 was to handle the non-auto/autoparts UP traffic. 57 did handle non-auto/parts traffic at times, but inconsistently, only as "fill" (filling out the train to a reasonable length for productivity/profitability reasons). So moving wings on 57 wouldn't have been very reliable since it couldn't have been done consistently. The "headend" requirement for the wings would have also fouled up 57, since the 'parts were supposed to be on the headend per the op. plan (fill went on rear when it was added). Having wings on the headend of 57 - out of block - would have caused delay at NOP when the ARRO (57 connection) was shuffled around and combined with the parts/vehicles traffic from KC before heading west to Cali.

I'd have to look to see if the wing cars were speed restricted in any way, I don't believe they were but can't be sure without doing some research in my "archives".


> I had also heard many times from employees those cars came off the GTW at Blue Island, for what that's worth.

Thanks for adding that. It seems we're building a consensus here that the route east of Chicago was CN-Pt. Huron-GTW. I'd still like to know who handled the cars west of Chicago each year after the RI folded. Someone offered shots of the cars on the CNW from the 1990s, but I still wonder if they moved that way through the 80s. I lived in Ames, Iowa from '80 to late '84 (CNW main) and must have seen the east and westbound GTW trains many dozens of times but never say any wing cars. I also had access to records from CNW's dispatcher's offices in Boone during that time (trainsheets, records, high/wide notices, train lists, etc) and also don't recall seeing/hearing about wing cars. So it's certainly possible they moved via CNW in those years, but if they did, they sure did a good job of staying out of sight.


Take care,

Mark

kevink Wrote:
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> Second photo is of UP 52790(I think). The photo is
> taken in Proviso, IL as the GT delivers a cut of
> cars to the CNW. Were there smaller wings built at
> the same location as the DC10 wings?
>

More than likely those are DC9 wings.

Dave Hussey