Nostalgia & History > When you could see the engineer in an Amtrak engine.

One thing about the GE engines Amtrak uses, is that it's almost impossible to see the engineer the way the window is slanted. Here is a good old F40 at Chicago ready to pull the Shawnee to Carbondale. The date is January 9th, 1986. When I got to Carbondale I went to see the movie Back to the Future. Seeing the F40 406 on the exhibit train got me thinking about "back to the future" with the F40.

---

It's a shame Amtrak spent more money on the GE's rather than save the money to completely rebuild the F40 fleet.
Charlie
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub

My Amtrak firing experience on the Santa Fe was on the 500's at first. Then they were replaced with the F-40's. At the same time they converted over to HEP from steam generators. The problem with that was, the engine stayed reved up at the same noisey RPM all the time. Even when stopped. The were no changes when you notched the throttle, because the RPM always stayed the same. Very annoying having to listen to that all the time, and it took some getting used to not hearing it change with the throttle. I remember the ride too. The F-40's had so much lateral movement at speed, it would almost throw out out of the chair. They would bottom out left and right, bang, bang, bang, all the way to Newton. Good riddance.

I can,t imagine there was anything left to rebuild. I know part of nostalgia "Well they used to rebuild and re engine etc. etc. etc..." That sort of stuff looks good in diesel spotters guides but to read observations of someone who made their daily bread in F 40s speaks volumes. Scrap the Lot!

ddg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My Amtrak firing experience on the Santa Fe was on
> the 500's at first. Then they were replaced with
> the F-40's. At the same time they converted over
> to HEP from steam generators. The problem with
> that was, the engine stayed reved up at the same
> noisey RPM all the time. Even when stopped. The
> were no changes when you notched the throttle,
> because the RPM always stayed the same. Very
> annoying having to listen to that all the time,
> and it took some getting used to not hearing it
> change with the throttle. I remember the ride too.
> The F-40's had so much lateral movement at speed,
> it would almost throw out out of the chair. They
> would bottom out left and right, bang, bang, bang,
> all the way to Newton. Good riddance.

Which trains were you running/firing the F40s on with them in HEP Mode on the ATSF (as this sounds like single-unit ops...such as the San Diegans?). Or perhaps the very early days on the Southwest Ltd. when they ran a single F40 ahead of the 500s that had pass-through HEP cabling? As normally it would be the 2nd unit in HEP Mode and the roaring you describe wouldn't be present on intercity trains in the lead unit. I'm sure they were bouncy critters compared to the big SDP40Fs, tho. Experienced them in single-unit ops on the Missouri River Eagles (with the effect you describe of constant RPMs with a single-unit, but as "normal revving" lead units on the Texas Eagle further south later on. But much-faster acceleration than with GEs... A lot of the AMTK crews that I knew in the Mail & Express days really liked a P42DC GE leading one or two F40s with the comfort of the GE cab and the extra "punch" provided by the EMDs behind, but I never got to experience such a mixed set of power. Just solid sets.

jcrun0mp7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can,t imagine there was anything left to
> rebuild. I know part of nostalgia "Well they used
> to rebuild and re engine etc. etc. etc..." That
> sort of stuff looks good in diesel spotters guides
> but to read observations of someone who made their
> daily bread in F 40s speaks volumes. Scrap the
> Lot!

VIA Rail did it with theirs. UPRR is doing it to about 500 or so SD40-2s. As is the Norfolk Southern & CSX (the two Eastern Roads even giving theirs new cabs). Turning them into Dash Threes, stripping them down completely to the frame, not one part left unrebuilt or in a condition that's not "like new."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/14 09:59 by Red.

Red Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ddg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My Amtrak firing experience on the Santa Fe was
> on
> > the 500's at first. Then they were replaced
> with
> > the F-40's. At the same time they converted
> over
> > to HEP from steam generators. The problem with
> > that was, the engine stayed reved up at the
> same
> > noisey RPM all the time. Even when stopped. The
> > were no changes when you notched the throttle,
> > because the RPM always stayed the same. Very
> > annoying having to listen to that all the time,
> > and it took some getting used to not hearing it
> > change with the throttle. I remember the ride
> too.
> > The F-40's had so much lateral movement at
> speed,
> > it would almost throw out out of the chair.
> They
> > would bottom out left and right, bang, bang,
> bang,
> > all the way to Newton. Good riddance.
>
> Which trains were you running/firing the F40s on
> with them in HEP Mode on the ATSF (as this sounds
> like single-unit ops...such as the San Diegans?).
> Or perhaps the very early days on the Southwest
> Ltd. when they ran a single F40 ahead of the 500s
> that had pass-through HEP cabling? As normally it
> would be the 2nd unit in HEP Mode and the roaring
> you describe wouldn't be present on intercity
> trains in the lead unit. I'm sure they were bouncy
> critters compared to the big SDP40Fs, tho.
> Experienced them in single-unit ops on the
> Missouri River Eagles (with the effect you
> describe of constant RPMs with a single-unit, but
> as "normal revving" lead units on the Texas Eagle
> further south later on. But much-faster
> acceleration than with GEs... A lot of the AMTK
> crews that I knew in the Mail & Express days
> really liked a P42DC GE leading one or two F40s
> with the comfort of the GE cab and the extra
> "punch" provided by the EMDs behind, but I never
> got to experience such a mixed set of power. Just
> solid sets.


When I started in early '79, Santa Fe Middle Div. crews at Emporia were still working trains 15 & 16 from Emporia to Ark City, and 3 & 4 from Newton to Kansas City with the 500's. When the F40's showed up in the 200 class, they took off 15 & 16, and shortened our run on 4 & 3 to just Emporia to Newton. That portion didn't have ATS, so we only ran 79, but with those, that was fast enough. The territories between KC and Emporia had ATS and were good for 90 in places.

ddg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My Amtrak firing experience on the Santa Fe was on
> the 500's at first. Then they were replaced with
> the F-40's. At the same time they converted over
> to HEP from steam generators. The problem with
> that was, the engine stayed reved up at the same
> noisey RPM all the time. Even when stopped. The
> were no changes when you notched the throttle,
> because the RPM always stayed the same. Very
> annoying having to listen to that all the time,
> and it took some getting used to not hearing it
> change with the throttle. I remember the ride too.
> The F-40's had so much lateral movement at speed,
> it would almost throw out out of the chair. They
> would bottom out left and right, bang, bang, bang,


Hear, hear! Awful engines; the P-40s and 42s were a big improvement. Spend 12 hours in an HEP producing F-40 and see how wonderful it is.
> all the way to Newton. Good riddance.

WP-M2051 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Hear, hear! Awful engines; the P-40s and 42s were
> a big improvement. Spend 12 hours in an HEP
> producing F-40 and see how wonderful it is.
> > all the way to Newton. Good riddance.

I don't work on the railroad but just by living close to a Metra stop and previously commuting on it I figured crews must hate those engines for that. With windows closed, five blocks away, I hear the HEP sound at full blast for the whole time the train is paused in the station... 5 am to 1 am.

Yeah, Chicago Union station was a disaster when you would have two trains pull in across the platform from each other. That's two F40's screaming at full throttle, with all the exhaust filling up the concourse area. Ugh! I knew an Amtrak engineer that worked the former ICG lines. He said he would kick it down to notch 5 idle mode on the approach to CUS. That way it would keep the HEP on, but not at the usual deafening roar. The only problem was, if he didn't time it right, he might not have enough momentum to make it all the way to the bumping post. That would probably would be a big no no in today's world.

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, Chicago Union station was a disaster when
> you would have two trains pull in across the
> platform from each other. That's two F40's
> screaming at full throttle, with all the exhaust
> filling up the concourse area. Ugh! I knew an
> Amtrak engineer that worked the former ICG lines.
> He said he would kick it down to notch 5 idle mode
> on the approach to CUS. That way it would keep
> the HEP on, but not at the usual deafening roar.
> The only problem was, if he didn't time it right,
> he might not have enough momentum to make it all
> the way to the bumping post. That would probably
> would be a big no no in today's world.

Notch 5--otherwise known as the "Standby Mode" on the HEP Selector Switch on F40PHs, and all AMTK GEs (except for the old P30CHs which had seperate HEP GenSets, like the more recent EMD F59PHIs, the Wabtec/MPI M36PH/MP40PHs--except for METRAs M36PH-3S units which use "Inverter HEP Primer Mover-driven HEP technology which doesn't require full RPMs). But with Standby Mode, these units are all able to supply HEP through the main traction alternator at the lower engine RPMs rather than through the HEP alternator mostly to conserve fuel in lengthy station stops, certain overnight stops where no "HEP trainline plugs" are available, etc. But in Standby Mode (for explanation), and regards the "coasting," the locomotives--EMD or GE--or not able to provide traction power. Due to GE's 4-stroke engine design even tho they run at the same constant-speed RPMs while in "Normal HEP Mode," they are somewhat quieter while standing still and not under both HEP & traction load. I.E., they only begin seriously "barking" & "chugging" more loudly when the throttle is widened & putting a traction load on the prime mover, while the 2-Sroke EMD F40s basically made no tonal difference whether sitting still in the station or both in HEP Mode and, the throttle in Notch 8 calling for full traction horsepower. Just the different nature of the two beasts.

Yes--the F40s WERE more preferable in 2-unit consists for the crew--wherein the lead unit if not the HEP Unit, pretty much sounded inside & out like a normal GP40-2 or SD40-2, with the 2nd unit doing the screaming. (Ergo the nickname of the F40s: "Screamers," sometimes "Boomboxes"). Which the METRA F40s still are. The VIA Rail F40PH-2s (now Dash 3s) have been rebuilt in such fashion that they now have separate HEP GenSets mounted to the rear.

Amtrak's philosophy (except for the old GE P30CHs and the EMD F59PHIs) has always been towards prime mover-driven HEP on the philosophy that it's more fuel efficient, and that intercity units spend more of their time in higher throttle settings, anyway. And, just as sometimes the steam generators on the old E-Units in harsh winter conditions could sometimes consume more fuel than the prime movers themselves, so too with separate HEP GenSets which can do the same under certain conditions, PLUS the factor of another diesel engine aboard the locomotive to worry about maintaining. But the future seemed to be pointing to Invertor HEP, still driven by the prime mover (like the METRA MP36PH-3S units or NJT's Alstom PL42ACs), but which do not require flat-out RPMs, but vary according to the train's parasitic HEP Load...I think that the upcoming EMD "Spirit" F125 locos will have this, too...

What a cool and informative thread. Sometimes you don't know what direction your posts are going to go on TO.

nikon1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a shame Amtrak spent more money on the GE's
> rather than save the money to completely rebuild
> the F40 fleet.
> Charlie
> MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub

Still would have used nearly double the fuel that P42s use.