Nostalgia & History > Mystery Northern Pacific Depot Restaurant

Good afternoon,

Bill Kuebler has posted these two photos of an NP depot restaurant. He's trying to identify where the depot is or was.

Here is his post:

"I've just posted in "FILES" section two photo files, NP Depot Restaurant
1 and NP Depot Restaurant 2. The two pics show the same depot restaurant
interior, from opposite sides of the lunch counter.

Can anyone identify this depot restaurant? I have a pretty good idea
which one it is but am not 100% certain, so I'll throw this out to the
group. If you think you can ID it, please give your reason(s) for your
answer, as your analysis may be necessary to persuade me that my choice
is wrong (or right, for that matter).

Some details to call to your attention:

1. A TIME magazine appears on the magazine rack. The cover shows a man I
thought I recognized as Navy Secretary James Forestall, which helped me
narrow the time frame to late- or just after WWII. So I went to a web
site that archives TIME Magazine covers and, sure enough, found it. It
is indeed Forestall and the issue date is October 29, 1945. Since most
restaurants were pretty good about keeping only the current issue of
TIME, LIFE, and other weekly mags, and since those magazines were
typically mailed about a week to ten days ahead of the publication date,
I'd say there's a very good chance these photos were taken around
October 22-29, 1945. Clothing on the people in the restaurant is
consistent with both time of year and mid-1940s.

2. Another magazine in the rack, an issue of "Flying" magazine, I
believe, shows a very recognizable P-80 Shooting Star on the cover,
suggesting that P-80s were new at the time. This would be consistent
with a 1945 date as well. P-80s went operational right after the war ended.

3. Photo #2 gives us an interesting glimpse out one of the windows. A
building appears in the background, and it appears to be of unusual
construction. Haven't had a chance to study this on a better screen yet,
but it looks like that building is a large brick building, possibly with
an open area under it at ground level, perhaps for parking? That is
questionable, however. The light area at the bottom left of that
building is possibly the sun-lit wall of a distant building (as we look
"through" the open area under the nearby building), or perhaps it is
actually a glass plate reflecting light from yet another building
opposite. I'm inclined to believe the latter at this point, but it's
inconclusive on this screen.

4. A menu cover with Monad confirms this is an NP depot.

5. It is not yet clear whether the restaurant is part of a depot or a
separate building next to a depot, as at Billings.

The following stations on the NP's main line had depot restaurants
(either in-depot or separate building adjacent the depot) in 1945:

St. Paul
Fargo
Jamestown
Mandan
Glendive
Billings
Livingston
Helena
Butte
Missoula
Paradise
Spokane
Seattle
Tacoma
Portland

I've ruled out Mandan. The lunch counter at Mandan was L-shaped and this
one appears to be U-shaped. Also, the seats are way too light and of the
wrong design for Mandan.

As for Fargo....we have a problem. Photographic evidence at this point
appears to be inconsistent. Certain details make it look definitely like
Fargo, and others make it look definitely NOT like Fargo. I'm digging
more into this as I write this, so it may be awhile before I can
reconcile those inconsistencies.

Unless someone recognizes the floor plan and interior details right
away, or maybe recognizes the waitress or some of the other people, it
seems that our best hope is someone recognizing the building that
appears outside the window.

Anybody?"


Just my thoughts. The building seen through the window in the second photo appears to be 3 stories. The depot tracks would be to the backs of the diners. This might be Livingston but I am not sure. I don't think it is Billings as the 1st window would look out on Montana Avenue which had no 3 story buidings across from the depot.

Anyway, happy hunting!

Steve Barkley, MMR

---

---

I have no idea about the location of this restaurant, but do love photo forensics. What most impressed me in these images is irrelevant to this discussion...but, in an era when people had, and demonstrated, good manners, I'm surprised at how many customers were sitting there with their elbows on the table.....definitely not good manners. It does appear that most of the customers are railroad workers in their work clothes. AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

Some interesting points, but not very useful to your search:

1. The photographer brought a ladder.

2. In the top picture the blinds on the windows are closed. They are open in the second picture and the building you describe is visible. The lower picture was the first one taken if the photographer's numbered his negatives in the order taken. So he (or somebody) closed the blinds between photos. Why?

3. The double doors on the far wall in the lower picture are probably the entrance. Through the glass does not look bright like the outside would. So the doors probably lead to the waiting room.

4. It looks like all the same patrons are in both pictures so the pictures were taken within minutes of each other.

5. Only one man took his hat off and it is on the rack behind him. The women don't have hats.

Marty Bernard

In the first posted photo (E565), the wall lights are "off": the second (E564)shows a set of wall lights "on".
The older lady sitting next to the young girl(teenager) in the second IS wearing a hat.
It appears that these images show opposite sides of the same counter/serving area. Which could explain the differences in the lights and window shades - too much light from the direction of the Sun. Can we determine the approximate time of day based on the clothing and food being served?
Speaking of manners, what even happened to taking your hat off inside?

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/14 17:19 by WOPRJim.

They have their hats on because its cold inside and outside.

photo 1..shooting into the window light so blinds closed.
photo 2..shooting across the room, more or less, so the blinds open.
Not dinner..people would be headed home..especially the blue collar types.
I think its breakfast. Note the worker in photo 2..deep in thought..over a cup of coffee.
Also..perhaps a cereal or fruit bowl on the counter and looks mostly like sweet rolls in the pantry.
Any dinner plates?
Roger Beckett

Im beginning to wonder if its any of those depots listed.

It "feels" like the interior of the Livingston depot to me also. The angle of the walls, etc.


Here is a link to a streetview.

>https://maps.gstatic.com/m/streetview/?panoid=X_Kf_hltlfRQCBcs71mkVg&cbp=0,320.8625038183091,,0,0



That Masonic wall looks new. Could that have been the wall visible in pic?


Nickatnight

I thought that at first but none of the window patterns seem to match , some of the Butte windows are close but was there anything around it that was 3 story with windows in groups of 3?

kingman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought that at first but none of the window
> patterns seem to match , some of the Butte windows
> are close but was there anything around it that
> was 3 story with windows in groups of 3?




I meant, could that wall visible in pic have been replaced by this new Masonic wall? Just a thought.....

Nickatnight

Let's eliminate St. Paul right now. NP used SPUD and didn't have
its own depot, and the pictures do not depict any portion of SPUD.

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA

Is that a whistle standing over those coffee urns?

nickatnight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kingman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I thought that at first but none of the window
> > patterns seem to match , some of the Butte
> windows
> > are close but was there anything around it that
> > was 3 story with windows in groups of 3?
>
>
>
>
> I meant, could that wall visible in pic have been
> replaced by this new Masonic wall? Just a
> thought.....
>
> Nickatnight
Im getting dumb , you kinda lost me , what masonic wall ? I can't find it in the pic

kingman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im getting dumb , you kinda lost me , what
> masonic wall ? I can't find it in the pic

I thought he was referring to one in the Streetview image, but at first glance I don't see one there either, so I'm equally confused.

I'm convinced the diner shown is NOT the one in the Streetview. The layout looks to be all wrong.

I've drawn a sketch of what it looks to me like how the diner in the pictures is laid out. Note that the entrance door is on the side wall. Of course this may go to a vestibule and a door on the front wall, I can't tell. Then we have a group of a three-light window at the end of the counter, with the left (in the pictures) window mostly blocked by the ice machine or whatever it is. There is a gap of some four to six feet, than another window light, which might be part of a group of three. If we assume it is part of a group of three, we are only seeing half the diner. on the other side of that partition wall on the right would be another section, probably with table service. (Or possibly just another entrance, but that would make the windows mismatched, and architects didn't like doing that in those days.)

---

I looked at pictures of the Murry hotel and cafe across the street and although it seems similar the angles and designs of the windows look different. Theres a group of windows that may have been 3's and with the top pains but all the trim and ceiling contours that flow into window frames are different. I suppose a lot could have changed but the lunch counter looks very spartan , theres brick floors or tiles like brick. The walls are sparse , the trim around the windows plain, The counter is just wood ,looks like just some basic wood . I m wondering if its an employee cafe to something not in the depot but across the street or close by.

Yes, could it have been just a beanery rather than a depot-restaurant?

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, could it have been just a beanery rather than
> a depot-restaurant?

I can't find in the pictures the menue with the NP logo on it. Maybe a higher definition file will show it.

Marty Bernard

Is Mr. Nixon still around? Would he know?

MartyBernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't find in the pictures the menue with the NP
> logo on it. Maybe a higher definition file will
> show it.

In the second image there is a menu-board to the left of the door.

In the first image there is most of the front (or back?) of a menu visible to the right of the cash register. It has some sort of logo on it.

The layout is wrong for Livingston. All the doors into the rest of the building there are on the west side of the room. That would mean the brick three story building out the window would be out in the yard to the north rather than to the south.

By the way, the word is masonry, not Masonic.