Nostalgia & History > SP 1714 and crew, about 1910-11: Wherezit?

About a decade ago I had this photo posted on my website, with a question about its location, which was never answered. It came from an antique store in Redding, CA. Ed Workman deduced from the composition of equipment, presence of train indicators and lack of turbo generator that the shot was probably recorded in 1910-11.

Not being the most organized guy in the world, I accidentally erased it from the site at some point, only discovering the error just now. It will be awhile before I can put it back, since my site is in a muddled state of reconstruction. In the meantime, I think that some of you SP addicts might enjoy it, and maybe come up with the elusive answer.

Regards,
E.O.
Wx4.org - The Dome O' Foam

---

Thanks for posting this classic E.O.
The crew member with the vest and Derby is my favorite. No idea on location, but your date is spot on. I've always enjoyed crew posses with their "Iron Horse" from this era. Your site is a favorite. Keep up the good work.

dmaffei Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for posting this classic E.O.
> The crew member with the vest and Derby is my
> favorite. No idea on location, but your date is
> spot on. I've always enjoyed crew posses with
> their "Iron Horse" from this era. Your site is a
> favorite. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for your kind words! I've gradually shifted my interests towards the Post Civil War to WWI period, and if I can get my act together, the site will begin to reflect this shortly.

As to the photo's location, maybe it is best that it remains unknown. As it stands now, that unknown guy with - as you point out - the vest and Derby could be anyone's grandfather, kind of a nice thought.

Get an old SP Timetable and try and locate where Train 308 ran. Maybe there was a 307 or 309. It looks as if there's a mountain range in the background, or is that just the photo. 308 should be headed east.

Any information about Tr 308 and where it ran?

Jim Watson
UP6900

You mean "Time Table East"?

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get an old SP Timetable and try and locate where
> Train 308 ran. Maybe there was a 307 or 309. It
> looks as if there's a mountain range in the
> background, or is that just the photo. 308 should
> be headed east.

UP6900 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any information about Tr 308 and where it ran?
>
> Jim Watson
> UP6900

http://colusasteam.com/Colusa_History.php

If you were not pressed for time, you could ride aboard the two “Daily except Sunday” Mixed Trains #308 and #309. These mixed freights operated between Hamilton City and Orland, taking 1 hour 55 minutes between the two terminals.

Did a little sleuthing on the internet and came up with these two pieces of information which may help identify the location.

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_Pacific_Railroad, in the list "Northwestern Pacific Railroad
Roster - Steam locomotives", it shows No. 301, Cooke Locomotive Works 2-6-0, blt. 1901, works no. 2626, ex-Southern Pacific Railroad #2142>#1716 leased 1929 retired 1934.

Also found this at http://colusasteam.com/Colusa_History.php, SOUTHERN PACIFIC’S COLUSA BRANCH
by Tony Johnson:

Around 1906, from its mainline station at Wyo, Southern Pacific constructed a 10.4 mile branch line east to the new Spreckels Sugar beet refinery at Hamilton (later called Hamilton City). Although it was constructed to serve mainly freight, SP did offer modest passenger service daily between Hamilton City and Davis (and the connecting trains to San Francisco and Sacramento) on Trains #522 and #523. These “Second Class” passenger trains were nothing more than distillate-powered self-propelled motor cars, which the railroad used to keep costs down on lightly patronized passenger runs. With 27 flag stops and schedule stops between Davis and Hamilton City, it took a while to get over the road. Train #522 departed Davis at 4:10PM and arrived at Hamilton City at 8:15PM. Interestingly, at Arbuckle there was a 10 minute station stop. Additionally, at Willows you could transfer to Mixed Trains #267-268 to reach Fruto.

If you were not pressed for time, you could ride aboard the two “Daily except Sunday” Mixed Trains #308 and #309. These mixed freights operated between Hamilton City and Orland, taking 1 hour 55 minutes between the two terminals.

So, it just may be this picture was taken at either Hamilton City or Orland.

I see someone posted a bit quicker than me.

Ron Butts
Lincoln, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/14 14:47 by RonSD70.

Interesting photo! I think we might be able to rule out Hamilton City or Orland just because of the number of tracks showing. Hamilton City did have about six tracks, but some of thm curved into the sugar refinery. The length of the train and tracks also appear to be way too long for Hamilton City, plus the mountains in the photo are wrong for Hamilton City. As for Orland I would also dismiss it on accout there are too many tracks.

That's my .02 cents worth.

Tony Johnson

It looks like the end of the train is in the picture and not cut off. As best I can count, it is something like 9 or 10 cars plus the caboose. Of course there is the detail that it doesn't appear to be a mixed train, but maybe this is Sunday.

It looks strangely like Mojave, CA, and the 308 was a valley train, albeit in much later years.
—Mac

It looks strangely like Mojave, CA, and the 308 was a valley train, albeit in much later years.
—Mac

Mojave, That was my guess also. If it was not an eastbound, I would have said Bakersfield.

(Note that the following has been heavily modified from the original posting, frankly because I am geographically challenged.)

Thanks to all of you guys for the input so far!

I have my own theory about the pic's location, but first I have to ask this:
Tony, where did you you get your info regarding trains 308 & 309, a public or employee timetable? Also, what hours did they run?

I'm leaning towards Red Bluff, if your info came from a public TT. Train 308 could have originated in Hamilton City, dropped its "public" cars in Orland, and run freight-only to Red Bluff. This would presume that #309 originated in Red Bluff in the afternoon, and the equipment laid-over at Hamilton overnight. The roundhouse facilities in RB and the convenient wye at the Colusa Branch junction make this plausible to me - so far.

Red Bluff had at least six tracks in the middle and bottom ends of the yard, according to a 1912 Sanborn. Noting the shadows at left seem to be of two boxcars, one could infer that there was at least one more track at left. Also, it looks like there is a road crossing about eight cars back, which would be consistent with RB Yard's several crossings. Thus a possibility for the photo location may be north (TT east) of Pine St, which bisects the train.

Other considerations: I looked at the the original scan of the photo, and it does not appear that there are mountains in the background. Also, if this is RB, the sun angle would place the scene in the fairly early morning (something that could be checked against timetables), which means that it would have originated at Hamilton at a very early hour. I wonder if the CSRRM has a Sac Division ETT for around this period? Hmm, hmm… Mohave is still a possibility, but you would see mountains, yes? I dunno...

- E.O.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/14 22:16 by hogheaded.

I think this may be Gerber train headed west. SP had a cattle facility on the east va!!ey line between Vina and Anita which would explain the stock cars in the photo.

Posted from Android

ppcx032 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think this may be Gerber train headed west. SP
> had a cattle facility on the east va!!ey line
> between Vina and Anita which would explain the
> stock cars in the photo.

I don't have access to my RR library right now, so I have to ask the question: Was there any sort of yard at Gerber then? My recollection is that it was constructed in the 1920's as a replacement for the Red Bluff Yard when SP shut the latter down.

Eastbound trains had even numbers, so train 308 is headed east, unless the fireman screwed up when hanging the numbers.

hogheaded Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (Note that the following has been heavily modified
> from the original posting, frankly because I am
> geographically challenged.)
>
> Thanks to all of you guys for the input so far!
>
> I have my own theory about the pic's location, but
> first I have to ask this:
> Tony, where did you you get your info regarding
> trains 308 & 309, a public or employee timetable?
> Also, what hours did they run?
>

I found the information in Southern Pacific ETT #89 (Sacramento Division) dated 6/8/1913.


Daily ex. Sun
#309 "Hamilton Passenger and Freight"
Hamilton depart 11:00am
Wyo arrive 11:30 am
Wyo depart 11:45am
Orland 11:50am
Greenwood 12:05pm (flag stop)
Grapit 12:10pm (flag stop)
Germantown 12:25pm
Lyman 12:35pm (flag stop)
Willows 12:45pm

Daily ex. Sun
#308 "Hamilton Passenger and Freight"
Willows depart 8:00am
Lyman 8:15am (flag stop)
Germantown 8:35am
Grapit 8:55am (flag stop)
Greenwood 9:00am (flag stop)
Orland 9:15am
Wyo 9;25am
Hamilton arrive 9:55am

There also were two other trains between Willows and Hamilton - both were "Motors" (McKeens). They were trains #522-523.

Tony



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/14 15:02 by TonyJ.

So, maybe it is getting ready to depart Willows on an early fall or late spring morning...fairly low morning sun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/14 19:21 by HardYellow.

AHA! Based upon Tony's TT information and the below Sanborn, Willows seems to be the best fit. I'd never contemplated Willows as being such an important RR town.

Based upon what is actually in view in the photo, I've tentatively placed the head end of 308 at the arrow. The lighting surely fits for a photo taken before an 8:00am departure. The number of tracks is dead-on (including one that is barely visible underneath the sleeve of the brakeman at the right), as is the dead-flat terrain.

Given that there were also motor car runs to Hamilton City, the apparent lack of a coach on 308 makes sense.

As to the map itself (as you can see, north is to the left), the CA-OR main track is geographically one track west of the train, with the Fruto Branch main being two tracks west. Though the 1912 map does not show a turntable, an 1897 version shows one at the end of the lead in the "S.P.R.R. Yard", where the number 165 sits in the 1912 map. Sanborns of all eras do not show a wye where the branch diverges towards Fruto. Their maps were sometimes thin on depicting trackage, so take your pick on what SP used to turn the trains.

In all, it's not a 100% bet, but I don't think that we can do any better than this, other than figuring out how equipment was turned. I shall place this on the Dome at some point.

Thanks to all of you, especially Tony, for your input!

- E.O.

---

That's pretty good detective work. It seems to make sense. Also SP ETTS show there was a wye at Willows, so turning equipment would be easily available.

Tony

That's pretty good detective work. It seems to make sense.

Yes, nice work, makes more sense than the “Single Bullet” theory in Dallas.