Nostalgia & History > U-boat roster shots, 1970's

I am going to start posting some items from my collection. These 4 are from a bunch given to me by a friend of my dad's named Biermacher. Yes... he was a bartender. I think he may have worked for Conrail also. Some of these have become warped, hence the variable focus. I am also still learning how to use Vuescan, so the color correction is a work-in-progress.
1. Conrail U25C 6518 at Collinwood, OH on 2/17/79.
2. Conrail U25C 6814 at Collinwood on 3/13/79. They were in the middle of renumbering them out of the 6500's, presumably to make room for new SD40-2's. Had to do some heavy color correction on this one.
3. Detroit Edison U30C 007 at Collinwood on 7/1/77.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/14 17:34 by halfmoonharold.

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Here is L&N U30C 1554, at Corbin, KY on 5/13/77.

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The GM&O conductor on "The Plug" commuter train from Joliet to Chicago that my dad rode had an all day layover in Chicago so he held a second job as a bartender at the "Palmer House" Hotel. Some times my dad would say the conductor had a rough trip back to Joliet and I understood what he meant.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

Nice shots the last two are very good scans!

Kris

I remember watching a brace of three or four of those Detroit Edison U30C's leading a DEEX coal train into or out of the enormous Detroit Edison generating station at Monroe, Mich, south of Detroit. They were pulling slowly, coming off or going onto the PC as I recall, and it was quite a show. It was my first close-up acquaintance with the big GE's and their distinctive sound, of which I ever after was a fan. (I know -- I wouldn't be if I had to run them). The track was not the best, and watching the motion in those floating bolster trucks that GE put under those U30C's at the time was quite interesting.

I believe they were loading those trains in those days south of Pittsburgh. I also seem to recall a Trains magazine article outlining the operation, and explaining why Detroit Edison had chosen to basically set up its own rail operation, cars and locomotives both, and use PC just as the carrier.

Thanks for the memories. And for the others too, especially the L&N U30C. Always good to see images of the Old Reliable, which are not too frequent here on TO.

MC
Columbia, Missouri

[Edit 9/17 9:50 pom CDT: I realized on reflection the the location at which I saw the DE units and their coal train was Detroit Edison's giant power plant at Monroe, Mich., not Trenton. Edit made.]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/14 19:57 by ironmtn.

Never got to run any of these, but plenty of the UP C30-7s, UP/MP C36-7s (delivered in UP Armour Yellow but lettered "Missouri Pacific," like the SD50s had been), and the UP's ex-MP B23-7s and B30-7As, and the ex-SP B23-7s, B30-7s, and B36-7s (also CSX B36-7s)...those 4-axle units on the 4-axle FB-2 floating bolster truck, much of a rougher ride!!! A very wild herky-jerky side-to-side motion no matter the condition of the track and also general swaying and bottoming out and bouncing and so forth--LOL!!! And the slow-loading on all..even long past the point you had any of the above up to its full 1050 RPMs, that ammeter would slowly, oh so slowly crawl like a snail into the green (took almost a full minute or longer once the unit was in Notch 8 or longer, whereas it took but seconds with, say, an SD40-2).

Interesting fact about the very late U30Cs/U33Cs/U36Cs (and their 4-axle counterparts): they were offered with no less than 3 control stands! The old traditional GE control stand (but a more evolved control stand than the U25B), a control stand identical to that found in SD40s and early SD40-2s with selector lever and w/o separate dynamic braking handle, and thirdly (which all of the ex-MP and SP/SSW B-Boats had, as well as the last of the SP U33Cs), the GE version of the AAR control stand in use today on the ES44AC GEVOS!!! (I.E., the post-2005 GE models, as in 2005 both EMD & GE did away with the Desktop Control Stands).

Perhaps somebody could come up with a photo of the original "semi-modern" GE control stand? (And no, I'm not talking about the old U25B control stand here). And I've seen no photos on here of this (only in GE operator's manuals, and I don't have a scanner). That is to the extent that anybody is even interested in this sort of thing--about the cab interiors of these beasts. It was the SP that had examples of each in its late U30C/U33C fleets, as info.

But yes, all of the above, even the "Baby Boats" built pre-1980 w/o the Fat Stack exhaust silencing, did indeed have quite a distinctive bark to them! And it seemed that each version had a different "Throttle Schedule." But mostly the later ones wherein, like Dash 8s, 9s, and the current generation wherein the throttle notch didn't correlate with engine RPMs. I can't recall all the deviations, but to make sense of it, for example, a Dash 8 and above, generally speaking, has RPM changes from IDLE--1--2--3&4--5-thru-7, then 1050 RPMs at Notch 8. So that you got a big jump at Notch 5. And on the older GEs in dynamic braking, the minute you went from Setup into Braking Mode, the prime mover would rev up to full Notch 8/1050 RPMs the entire time one was in DBs, and this carried over into the Dash 7 series. But ended with the Dash 8 Series (the full blast RPMs in DBs that is).

Enjoyed your GE memories, Red. Always great for us on the outside to hear from our TO friends who actually had throttle time with the locomotives of our interests.

I was not aware of the three control stand options. Very interesting.

One thing: I can't figure why in the world the prime mover would go to full revs when you went into dynamics. That just blows my mind, and is new info I had never encountered before (or witnessed, so far as I can recall). Just seems very odd. To which some might say, "Well it's a GE -- wadidya expect?". And I will say that none of the train sims or GE loco modelers for the sims for them have gotten that right, so far as I know (and I have a bunch of early GE's that I run regularly, from a number of different sources and virtual modelers). Transition to dynamics in the sim, and engine revs die. I wonder if anybody outside of you guys who ran them had ever heard of that behavior before.

Always great to get some education from the pros here in TO. Thanks again.

MC
Columbia, Missouri

Santa Fe U-23-b's would rev up to a high speed when you turned up the kicking switch. Not Many used them for yard work though. I think the engine speeds only had about three rpm settings, we had U-23-C's too and they acted about the same way. Those two models and the U-33-c's had the same control stands.

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ironmtn Wrote:
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> Enjoyed your GE memories, Red. Always great for us
> on the outside to hear from our TO friends who
> actually had throttle time with the locomotives of
> our interests.
>
> I was not aware of the three control stand
> options. Very interesting.
>
> One thing: I can't figure why in the world the
> prime mover would go to full revs when you went
> into dynamics. That just blows my mind, and is new
> info I had never encountered before (or witnessed,
> so far as I can recall). Just seems very odd. To
> which some might say, "Well it's a GE -- wadidya
> expect?". And I will say that none of the train
> sims or GE loco modelers for the sims for them
> have gotten that right, so far as I know (and I
> have a bunch of early GE's that I run regularly,
> from a number of different sources and virtual
> modelers). Transition to dynamics in the sim, and
> engine revs die. I wonder if anybody outside of
> you guys who ran them had ever heard of that
> behavior before.
>
> Always great to get some education from the pros
> here in TO. Thanks again.
>
> MC
> Columbia, Missouri

Ah yes, but consider that the SD40s, SD45s, SD40-2s (and GP-variants) of the same period would automatically rev up to Notch 5 RPMs during Dynamic Braking as soon as you went into "Set Up." But later--or some--Dash 2s that were rebuilt didn't rev up to Notch 5 RPMs until a certain DB load factor kicked in, and even some of those built in 1980. Just as this didn't occur on, say, the UP/MP C36-7s (once actually called "Techo-Toasters" when those were brand new!!!...as did not the Dash 8s, Dash 9s, or the AC models). Of course, the old ex-MP UP B-Boats never did such since they didn't even have DBs in the first instance...LOL!!!

But it was just an "old technology" thing on the part of both GE and EMD as it was a direct method to rev up the traction motor and DB cooling fans and back before Fuel Economy became much of an issue. Newer technology from both builders made the Notch 8 GE/Notch 5 EMD direct linkage unnecessary as the early and even primitive computer technology, such as it was, able to detect when increased prime mover RPMs were truly necessary under higher DB Loads. And even with a "time factor" under such loads. This first was apparent on late 1980-model SD40-2s, and certainly on SD/GP50s and the 60-Series for the "Instant Notch 5 RPMs" and the "Instant Notch 8 RPMs" on the very late-model C30-7s and C36-7s.

And on the GEs in particular, strange critters that they were--and are--running at the full 1050 RPMs under a light DB load (not full load), they rather sounded like large vacuum cleaners. No "chugging" to be heard in the process. Sort of the way that even tho the current Amtrak P42DCs run constant-speed flat-out as did the older EMD F40PHs while in HEP Mode, the F40s would sound like and SD40-2 pulling a hill under full load sitting still in the station with their EMD 645s (and if a single unit, no noticeable sound variance whether sitting still are climbing a hill or accelerating out of a station with full traction & HEP load...but perhaps a bit more smoke emitted), while with the GE P32-8s and the P42DCs, while running constant speed flat-out in HEP Mode, they have a different sound w/o the "chugging" while sitting still in the station with their 4-cycle FDL-Series engines, but the distinctive GE "chugging" begins even tho the RPMs do not change as a single unit accelerates out of the station (sound AND smoke differential). EMD 2-cyle/GE 4-cycle, just simply two different beasts sound-wise and lots of other characteristics, including the much-slower loading of the FDL GE prime mover/electricals vs. the EMD setup.

Never ran one with the old 16-Notch throttle setup, and always wondered how that would've worked out in a mixed consist, tho it was done on many RRs and on a daily basis. I.E., on the much older control stands as on the U25B and U28C (that isn't even in the three control stands that I mention above), would Notch 3-1/2 leave trailing EMDs in Notch 3 (which is my guess), or jack them up to Notch 4? I'm thinking strongly that it would be "rounded DOWN." Too bad that our recently late friend John "Steamjockey" Edwards isn't around to answer this question, may God keep him and run him all clears up in Heaven...

For proof of this regarding the GEs, including even on the Amtrak GE P30CH "Pooch" units (and on those beasts, whether in straight DB or in Blended Braking), all one has to do is to order online an Operator's Manual for one of the older GEs. A really interesting manual is the "Amtrak Combined GE P30CH/EMD F40PH Operator's Manual." Sorry that I cannot at present provide the year for an appropriate GE freight locomotive operating manual, but I have one somewhere in the utility room from around 1975 or so that covers the "3 Operating Stand" situation available to "suit customer desires." And as I say, the SP 6-axle GEs demonstrated all three versions. As for the old MP U30Cs as I recall, most of them had the "off the shelf GE control stand." While all of the 4-axle MP (from U23B on up) and SP/SSW "Baby Boat" units (B23-7/B30-7/B36-7) all had--every one--the GE variation of the AAR Control Stand in use to this day on the ES44DC/ES44AC GEVOS (as well as earlier CN and especially ALL NS North American Cab Units)...to this day. An arrangement that I preferred over the "Desktop Controls" even tho I was comfortable with either design, but, felt more "solid" running a good old traditional control stand unit. And maybe getting a bit off point, but an interesting photo posted on the Western Board fairly recently of the BNSF GP60Ms, all of which have been retrofitted with AAR standard control stand environments from their as-delivered desktop environments (owing greatly to their changed status on said RR).

But great pix of these big monsters. Never got one of the ones pictured above, but did get a good number of the CSX B36-7s on my UP route, to my fasination. Hard, HARD-riding units, but good pullers for 4-axles (especially if you had a couple of SD70Ms behind to "Help Out"...LOL!!!). But the darn things made one feel that one was going at least 10 or so MPH faster than track speed due to the overall "Herky Jerk" sensation. And while I've run GE P42DCs (totally different truck), just cannot IMAGINE running or riding aboard one of the AMTK P32-8s in the 500-Class at 90 MPH on the Southwest Chief or the San Diegans/Pacific Surfliners, upon which they were used for so long!!! :-P Or even 79 MPH as they are often still used!!!

And yes, the current GE "Roller Blade" 6-axle trucks, pretty much universal (and GE's version of Radial, aka "Self-Steering Trucks" on certain RRs such as on CSX or KCS) are much more smooth-riding than the older GE 6-axle trucks... Yes, not as bad as the notorious GE FB-2 truck. But like you, have seen them "flex all over the place" when pacing one once upon a time, and certainly noticed the difference running them from an EMD mounted on HT-C trucks or the HTCR Radial Trucks under SD70Ms, SD70MACs, SD9043ACs, or the current SD70ACes...

Red Wrote:

> Sorry that
> I cannot at present provide the year for an
> appropriate GE freight locomotive operating
> manual, but I have one somewhere in the utility
> room from around 1975 or so that covers the "3
> Operating Stand" situation available to "suit
> customer desires."

George Elwood's site has many operating manuals online, including some GE:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/manual.html

This one has pictures and descriptions of two types of stands:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/u33-opcn.html

The older GE's didn't use electric fans for cooling the grids. They had a mechanical driven fan that was powered by a shaft that also ran the air compressor. Seems like I can still remember a right angle gearbox, and another shaft running vertically to the fan on the roof. We had a U-36-C out of Wellington one time, that was isolated but idling. I looked around for a reason, and found that shaft broken apart at the U-joints, so no cooling fans.

All, particularly Red and Dennis:

Thanks again for the great commentary from the right side of the cab. Just really enjoying your comments and analysis, and all of the interesting facts. Appreciate it much.

And now that I think about it for the early GE's going to high revs when you transitioned into dynamics, yes there was that shaft drive for the big, single cooling fan and radiator in the back. The DB grids were there in the side panels in the early U-Boats (I'd have to think about when they moved upstairs, and even more when they got their own electric-drive fans). Those grids had to have cooling air sucked over them by that fan. This the need to go to high revs to crank up the fan and cool those grids when you went into DB. Totally makes sense now.

Learning like this from so many different perspectives and experiences is why Todd doesn't have to provoke me too much to renew each year. (And no, there was no "promotional consideration paid" for that shameless plug). Thanks again.

MC
Columbia, Missouri

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Red Wrote:
>
> > Sorry that
> > I cannot at present provide the year for an
> > appropriate GE freight locomotive operating
> > manual, but I have one somewhere in the utility
> > room from around 1975 or so that covers the "3
> > Operating Stand" situation available to "suit
> > customer desires."
>
> George Elwood's site has many operating manuals
> online, including some GE:
>
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/manual.html
>
> This one has pictures and descriptions of two
> types of stands:
>
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/u33-opcn.html

Good info, Evan, from the links you provided! I'm thinking that the 3rd variation--the "original GE control stand" (not pictured) which would've been on many of the early SP U30Cs and MP U30Cs (which I hunted for in your links but couldn't find), would have been built around the 1970 period or so. Not the fat clunky-looking almost "exterior-looking" throttle handle as on the U25Bs/Cs, but a very thin throttle handle. Also I recall that with the reverser on these--in particular--the reverser was used also for dynamic braking (on the SP units, as the MP units were not equipped). But the reversers on the early SP U30Cs, and perhaps some of the oldest of the units photographed above, the positions of the reverser were Neutral--Forward--Dynamic, and Neutral--Reverse--Dynamic. For that "3rd Variant." No Selector Lever or separate DB Handle (as on the AAR Control Stand). And the Throttle Notch numbers were just painted on in black paint on a grey surface. A lot of interesting variations on those old GEs!!! Also, I betcha 10-to-1 that this was how the old ATSF U28CGs and U30CGs were equipped in the cab interior. The way that I describe.

The U-28's U-30CG's had the 16 notch version. The old 6300 class U-23-B's had the version you are talking about. The throttle was just a round rod with a handle screwed onto it, and the reverser was a very short throw type it too was just a rod with a round ball on the end of it. The Pwr/DB selector just kind flopped from one position to the other, and it also had a small handle screwed onto a short rod. The load meters just had green orange & I think red, no amp numbers to speak of. The U-23's & U33's on the Santa Fe had the same one. My old friend RJ McKay an Engineer out of Temple, TX had a photo of one of those a while back on his website, but I can't find it now that I need it.

ddg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The U-28's U-30CG's had the 16 notch version. The
> old 6300 class U-23-B's had the version you are
> talking about. The throttle was just a round rod
> with a handle screwed onto it, and the reverser
> was a very short throw type it too was just a rod
> with a round ball on the end of it. The Pwr/DB
> selector just kind flopped from one position to
> the other, and it also had a small handle screwed
> onto a short rod. The load meters just had green
> orange & I think red, no amp numbers to speak of.
> The U-23's & U33's on the Santa Fe had the same
> one. My old friend RJ McKay an Engineer out of
> Temple, TX had a photo of one of those a while
> back on his website, but I can't find it now that
> I need it.

Hmmmh...maybe somebody will find a photo of this version of control stand before this thread gets too old, hopefully, in that it's the "original GE control stand" for late 1960s--to--pre-1971/72 GE U-Boats. Looking a bit more modern than the old 16-Notch, "ALCO-looking" control stand, but certainly not as modern as the "EMD lookalike" control stand provided for "customer desires" (the one that looks just like an SD40 control stand, let alone the AAR double handle (throttle & DB handle) control stand still in use today on the newest ES44AC GEVOs...