Nostalgia & History > milwaukee road question

does anybody have any idea what were the MOST amount of e/b and w/b trains the Milwaukee road ran between deer lodge and Harlowton (pass and frt) per day?

symbols (including the orgin/destination) and types of trains (manifest freight, coal, intermodal, etc.) would be great too.

thanks for any info........

66

Westbound trains were numbered 261-263. I believe these trains originated out of Bensenville yard in Chicago. 261 was a hot shot with auto racks/piggybacks. 263 was usually everything else. When business picked up they also would run a westbound number 265. I don't recall where this one originated from but these west bounds I believe would eventually end up in Tacoma, WA. This would have been during the 60's and 70s. Sometime in the 70s they renumber these trains to 201-203-205. East bound trains were 262 (hotshot) 264 (mixed freight) an extra #266 (which had everything else). The east bounds were I think numbered to 202-204-206. I can't recall why the Milwaukee renumbered these trains. These trains were daily. I don't know what the passenger train numbers were. These trains were daily. I don't know if this helps. I could be off where the trains originated from and the final destination. I know a lot of west bound traffic would go to Deer lodge & Missoula. I would be interested in what others might have for input.

thanks Bristol. good info on the Milwaukee's manifests.

also, I take it that this was train order territory (or what would be t.w.c. abs territory today)?

I am very interested to see how many trains the Milwaukee was able to run during the good days with this method of operation......

66



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/14 08:31 by goneon66.

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> does anybody have any idea what were the MOST
> amount of e/b and w/b trains the Milwaukee road
> ran between deer lodge and Harlowton (pass and
> frt) per day?

Passenger peak was in the 1940s:

15-16 Olympian
17-18 Columbian
7-8 Butte - Spokane Local (not operating east of Butte)

>
> symbols (including the orgin/destination) and
> types of trains (manifest freight, coal,
> intermodal, etc.) would be great too.
>

All-time freight traffic peak on the Pacific Extension was in Oct. 1973. The evolution of freight traffic was as follows:

1954 - Oct. 1963:

One time freight in each direction per day, trains 263-264
One Dead Freight in each direction 1-3X per week

Oct. 1963 - Summer, 1970

Two time freights in each direction per day, trains 261-262 and 263-264
One Dead Freight in each direction 1-3X per week

Summer, 1970 - May, 1971

Same line-up but with Dead Freight frequency increasing to daily each way by May, 1971

May, 1971 - Dec. 1972

Daily time freights 261, 262, 263, 264
Daily dead freights 265, 266
In Sept., Oct. and Nov. 1972, second sections of 265 on peak days. Not sure if they ever ran a second section of 266.

Jan. 1973 - Oct. 1973

Daily time freights 261C, 261TC, Advance 262, Second 262, 263, 264
Daily Dead Freights in each direction
During Sept. and Oct. 1973, a second westbound Dead Freight on peak days. Again, not sure if they ever ran a second section of the eastbound Dead Freight.

Jan. 1974 - May 1974

Daily time freights 261C, 261TC, Advance 262, Second 262
Daily dead freights 263, 264

The story generally gets more grim after that.

The foregoing counts are applicable Harlowton - Deer Lodge. In the level districts east of Harlowton and west of Avery, the counts were at times somewhat lower and train tonnages were higher.

Best regards,

Rob L.

outstanding info rob, thanks very much.

in your opinion, in train order territory, what is the maximum amount of e/b and w/b freight trains the Milwaukee could have run between deer lodge and Harlowton per day?

thanks for any info.......

66

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> outstanding info rob, thanks very much.
>
> in your opinion, in train order territory, what is
> the maximum amount of e/b and w/b freight trains
> the Milwaukee could have run between deer lodge
> and Harlowton per day?
>

A qualified answer is required. The qualifying conditions:

1. What transit times are acceptable for the various trains. If all are Dead Freights, the answer is much greater than the case where some or most of the trains are time freights.

2. Is the configuration of siding lengths and spring switches fixed, or is it allowed to be upgraded?

As traffic rose to four trains each way per day, Milwaukee's performance on the time freights dramatically worsened. While there was some increase in slow orders, it was not nearly enough to explain the dramatic extension of transit times for the time freights. So, under the qualifications that (1) performance of the time freights to fast schedules has to be good, and (2) there are no allowed improvements in the way of lengthening sidings or adding spring switches, I would conclude that Milwaukee already had more traffic than it could handle in 1973.

Best regards,

Rob L.

Its interesting that in the early electrification years track seems to have been moving around continuously, to the point that the electrical department couldn't keep track of where new sidings were being added or extended in length, and then later the railroad seems to have ossified, and the idea of changing a siding became a matter of great debate and years of study, rather than simply going out and fixing it.

rob, in your opinion, IF all of the sidings were long enough for meets (at least 6000'?) and had well maintained spring switches at both ends, would 7 trains in each direction have been possible?

if so, I assume that would be with the short crew districts of deer lodge-three forks/three forks-Harlowton?

were the "dead freights" responsible for s/o-p/u's at deer lodge, three forks, and Harlowton or would time freights do that too depending on business needs?

thanks again for your info........

66



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/14 12:08 by goneon66.

If I recall correctly (and I may not) the electrification was originally built for 3 trains a day each way, with an average of 2000 trailing tons in one direction and 3000 trailing tons the other direction. Average speed was designed to be around 16 MPH, but they found they could get closer to 18 or 19. They undoubtedly increased capacity a little over the years, but I don't think there was a major increase.

You are talking roughly twice as many trains, and haven't mentioned speed. If you kept the speed the same, it would roughly double (or a little more) the power draw from Montana Power. If you are talking higher overall speeds, then, assuming the road is still electrified, the power goes up considerably. Energy requirements go up with the square of the speed, so to double the average speed to around 40 MPH would increase the power requirement by 4 times just for the original 3 trains each way. For 7 trains at 40 MPH it would probably be around 10 times the original planned draw. Which would take a good deal more infrastructure in terms of more substations and bigger wires. Of course, if you wanted heavier trains, that will increase the power needs too. And of course you are going to need more road power to service more trains at once, or more trailing tons at once.

There's also the question of signalling. I think the MILW ran with ABS blocks where the block size was the spacing between stations. There were, what, 5 stations or so in the electrified zone? That limits the total number of trains you can have on the line at once, especially with a single-track line. (At 40 MPH and 300 miles of track, it will take 8 hours to get over the line. That would mean that each block was occupied by the train for about 2 hours before it cleared. Since there are 24 hours in a day, the most trains per day you could have on the single-track line was 12. If they doubled the number of blocks you could in theory double the number of trains, but they will still all be running on reds.)

What????

Out

lwilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I recall correctly (and I may not) the
> electrification was originally built for 3 trains
> a day each way, with an average of 2000 trailing
> tons in one direction and 3000 trailing tons the
> other direction. Average speed was designed to be
> around 16 MPH, but they found they could get
> closer to 18 or 19. They undoubtedly increased
> capacity a little over the years, but I don't
> think there was a major increase.
>
> You are talking roughly twice as many trains, and
> haven't mentioned speed. If you kept the speed the
> same, it would roughly double (or a little more)
> the power draw from Montana Power. If you are
> talking higher overall speeds, then, assuming the
> road is still electrified, the power goes up
> considerably. Energy requirements go up with the
> square of the speed, so to double the average
> speed to around 40 MPH would increase the power
> requirement by 4 times just for the original 3
> trains each way. For 7 trains at 40 MPH it would
> probably be around 10 times the original planned
> draw. Which would take a good deal more
> infrastructure in terms of more substations and
> bigger wires. Of course, if you wanted heavier
> trains, that will increase the power needs too.
> And of course you are going to need more road
> power to service more trains at once, or more
> trailing tons at once.

The Milwaukee never achieved the power consumption negotiated when the infrastructure was designed.
>
> There's also the question of signalling. I think
> the MILW ran with ABS blocks where the block size
> was the spacing between stations. There were,
> what, 5 stations or so in the electrified zone?
> That limits the total number of trains you can
> have on the line at once, especially with a
> single-track line. (At 40 MPH and 300 miles of
> track, it will take 8 hours to get over the line.
> That would mean that each block was occupied by
> the train for about 2 hours before it cleared.
> Since there are 24 hours in a day, the most trains
> per day you could have on the single-track line
> was 12. If they doubled the number of blocks you
> could in theory double the number of trains, but
> they will still all be running on reds.)

In 1916 when the electrification was installed the signaling system was Manual Blocks, so blocks did run between stations. APB was installed around 1930, signals being placed at each end of each siding and intermediate signals every 2 to 4 miles between stations.

-John

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rob, in your opinion, IF all of the sidings were
> long enough for meets (at least 6000'?) and had
> well maintained spring switches at both ends,
> would 7 trains in each direction have been
> possible?

That's really pushing it. Five each way perhaps.

>
> if so, I assume that would be with the short crew
> districts of deer lodge-three forks/three
> forks-Harlowton?

Yes. I believe the Three Forks crew change lasted until the end.

>
> were the "dead freights" responsible for s/o-p/u's
> at deer lodge, three forks, and Harlowton or would
> time freights do that too depending on business
> needs?

Before 1974:

261 trains normally did no work on the Rocky Mountain Division. An exception was a setout at Miles City of the Billings mail during the short period that Milw had the mail contract. Also, diesels were re-fueled at Deer Lodge.

262 trains normally did no work except receiving a fill at Harlowton.

263 trains picked up the gypsum at Harlowton. Occasionally a 263 train might set out at Deer Lodge or Missoula but usually did no work west of Harlowton. Also, diesels were re-fueled at Deer Lodge.

264 trains were yarded at Deer Lodge to re-ice the perishables. They usually received a fill at Deer Lodge. In some years 264 trains picked up the anodes somewhere around Rocker/Butte. 264 trains also were filled at Harlowton.

The Dead Freights normally did all the other work.

Best regards,

Rob L.