Nostalgia & History > a 3-image teaser for Evan!

Here are 3 more images copied from the J. M. Spellman collection. There is information accompanying all 3 images. That’s the easy part… The hard part is trying to decide if this information is correct, and/or how much of it is correct. So this will be a fun, but trying exercise in speculation! Unless Mr. Werkema finds solutions right away in his wonderful library of Santa Fe historical information. (It’s happened before!) The envelope containing all of these 2nd & 3rd generation copy negatives has the simple wording: “Locomotives 1950”, a generic date which is wide open to speculation! Lets’ take them one image at a time:

1. “AT&SF Saffordville depot with train #3 [passing by].” My input:

Image #1 is from a tiny 2nd or 3rd generation copy negative, making the background detail extremely hard to make out. This negative has additional info attached that says ‘train #3 at Saffordville depot”. I’m pretty sure this actually is Saffordville even though only the classic Santa Fe circle-cross is visible on this west side of the depot. From the lay of the land and from my shooting experiences in the area from the mid 1970s-on, I can easily accept this location ID. The communication/code lines are certainly high enough and in the right place to allow a road crossing over the mainlines. That would be today’s current rural Chase County “Zz Road” crossing. The image has some barely discernible evidence of a code line in the background. This appears to be in the correct position to support the 3rd mainline which was constructed in the summer of 1952. This was a direct result of the widespread 1951 Flood that devastated much of eastern Kansas. So the date for image #1 could be 1952 or later.

As for this being [mail] train #3, that IS the unmistakable profile of a PA bearing down on the photographer! Santa Fe PAs were common on mail trains #3 & #4. And I have a 1946 Middle Division employee timetable that has train #3 passing Ellinor (just a mile or so further west) at 2:22 PM. So the sunlight angle would also support this being train #3.

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2. “AT&SF 5011 at Ellinor, KS.” My input:

Image #2 was obviously taken from the rear end of a passenger train at a fairly high rate of speed. The sunlight angle supports the idea that this train was shot while in the Ellinor area, probably between Saffordville & Ellinor, two stations which were just over a mile apart. The track configuration may or may not come into conflict here. Let’s speculate with the idea of pinpointing the photographer’s perch on the rear platform of that westbound passenger train. The north main track through both Saffordville & Ellinor was (& still is) straight as an arrow. The resulting lack of speed restrictions would account for the motion blur just beyond the grill-work of the car’s platform. But it gets dicey from here:

[premise #1] IF… the photographer’s rear platform perch is between Saffordville & Ellinor the mainline track(s) configuration fits, but probably before the 1952 3rd mainline, flood control project. I don’t have any track profiles available, but it’s entirely feasible that there was a 3rd mainline or at least an auxiliary track between the 2 stations which would be there to support the freight mainline breaking away from the passenger main at the Ellinor interlocking crossover plant. After the 1952 construction project, the 3rd mainline breaks away AND rises away from the other two mains (for flood control) immediately east of the Ellinor crossover plant. So the track the 5011 is on would be a little further to right (south) and a little higher in elevation.

But a problem arises in the apparent size of the tiny cluster of buildings (way back there to the left) against the profile of the 5011-led manifest. I would think the Saffordville depot would appear larger is this photo. One shaky explanation would be the photographer used a wide angle lens for his shot. Also, considering image #1, the depot appears to be further away (north) from the track in image #2. Another shaky (but possible) explanation: The depot was moved closer to the mainline between the dates of the 2 photographs.

[premise #2] IF… the photographer’s rear platform perch is somewhere OTHER than between the 2 stations mentioned, the only possible location candidate would be Plymouth, KS. Plymouth was about half way between the Merrick interlocking crossover plant (on the western edge of Emporia Yard) & Saffordville. Plymouth did have a depot once upon a time, but I’m reasonably sure it was gone by the 1950s. Then there’s the photo of Plymouth WITH a 3rd track (see image #3), and it’s not unreasonable to state there might have been some smaller misc structures there after the depot was removed. That would explain why they look so small in image #2. The lack of the post-1951 Flood, separate 3rd mainline on the right (south) would date this image as pre-1951.

But the total lack of foliage bothers me in BOTH cases for image #2. Plus I would think the original US hwy 50 would be visible on the left. It ran ‘hand-in-glove’ parallel to the mainline along the Saffordville/Ellinor/Strong City stretch. US 50 didn’t run quite so close in the Plymouth area, And if you go back in history far enough, US 50 actually crossed over the 2 mains just east of Plymouth and ran SOUTH of the mainlines for an undetermined distance. (About ¼ mile of the old zig-zag crossover pavement is still in place east of Lyon County rural road ‘C’ crossing!) Read on:

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3. “AT&SF 2910 Plymouth, KS.” My input:
A couple of worm-filled cans open up with this image! Again this is a tiny multi-generation copy negative with mostly black shapes for redeeming detail. But I’m POSITIVE this is in the Plymouth area. One concrete piece of evidence: Down in the lower right hand area of the image (just to the left of the ‘Santa Fe’ crossbuck) is a marker reading “Chase Co…….”. This undoubtedly marks the boundary line between Lyon & Chase Counties. The photographer is standing in Chase County, shooting into Lyon County. And the ancient Santa Fe location of Plymouth definitely sat just over a mile east of the county line. The main line the 2910 (according to info attached to the negative) is on is a 3rd mainline next to the original “double track ABS” mainlines) With the 2910 hauling an obvious manifest, the train is in correct position to take the freight route that eventually veers away from the 2 passenger mains at Ellinor.

WORMS! IF… image #2 is not between Saffordville & Ellinor, and IS supposedly Plymouth, where is all the FOLIAGE seen in image #3?

MORE worms! IF… the track under the 2910 in image #3 truly is a “3rd mainline” as it appears to be with that cantilever semaphore signal, then why does the so-called 3rd mainline track under the 5011 in image #2 look more like a siding than a mainline?

Well Evan, I've taken this brain-straining workout as far as I can. I may EVEN have gotten a few items right! But now I’m all tuckered out. I think I’ll down a cool one and hit the sack. So my friend: “You’re on your own from here”...

Have fun! ;^)
Lance Garrels
santafe199



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/22 20:10 by santafe199.

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It almost looks like a baldwin shark nose heading No. 3.

The 5011 class 2-10-4 looks like it is in the wrong state? wag216

By severely playing with the first image, I can see that the station end wall is siding. This should be no surprise considering that the south(?) (platform-side) wall is also obviously siding. I can see what is in all probability a station sign below the SF emblem, but the entire sign is pixel value zero, so it is just black with no detail. The black spot is long enough for a substantial number of letters.

On the right side, trying to figure out something about the track work, I agree there seems to be room for three tracks or so before the platform edge and the telegraph poles. However, I can only manage to bring out the track that the train is on. The rest of the area is mostly black, with some spots that might be puddles reflecting the sky. (It might also be snow.) It appears (but I'm not completely sure) that the ground level slopes down several feet by the time you get to the code line.

My first thought is that the first two images are in winter or early spring, still with snow on the ground.
However, that tractor and loaded hay bale wagon in the second image probably blows that idea out of the water.

No.2 looks too treeless for Ellinor or that part of Kansas. The condition of the track the freight is on looks like a siding and not the third main.

Cool photos.

Bob

The code lines in two appear to be completely different than the other two shots indicating a totally different line?
JB

I don't think #2 is between Saffordville and Ellinor. The old highway on the north side is just not there in the photo, and a Google Earth look shows it separating away from the tracks the further East it runs from Ellinor. And it's just too baren and treeless, looks more New Mexico, or someplace a 5011 is more likely to have shown up. But, there was a 3rd track between the curve a mile west of Merrick, and Ellinor. There are several old bridges with 1926 dates between those locations that clearly had a 3rd track over them at some point. I always thought it looked as if they just swung it over to the new 1952 Trk 3 (or South track) right of way when it was completed. Evidence of that clearly shows in the photo taken at County Line crossing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/14 07:30 by ddg.

#1 - At first I thought it was Santa Fe's lone Eire-built FM, but I see what looks to be a number board bump in the center above the windshield, like an Alco PA. Both the FM and PAs had the higher silver area around the anti-climber. I concur Staffordville.

#2 - Where are the 5+ cross armed pole lines like in the Staffordville photo, that would be running between Emporia and Newton.? I'm thinking more like west of Wellington, KS. Where 5011 types would have run.

#3 - What is the number on the signal plate? Could this be Cedar Point, the other Chase County line to the west? An eastbound in the westward siding on a late summer afternoon (foliage on trees)?

What seems unusual to me is in both #2 & 3, the freights appear to be on sidings not in corresponding to the main tracks. That is, in #2 it looks to be a westward main for the vantage point of the photographer and the freight is on the eastward siding. In #3 it is a westward train in the eastward siding at Plymouth (was there an eastward siding??) or eastward train on the westward siding at Cedar Point (I'm thinking there was a westward siding at Cedar Point).
Dave in Msla

Also, in #2, I think the grain elevator at Saffordville, which was west of the depot, would have shown up in the photo at the date it was taken.

I will agree with all the comments so far. As a WAG,
I would say #2 might be entering Clovis, NM. The
double track main was there and what's obviously a
siding is the track the 5011 2-10-4 is on. As I
said, a WAG, and not related to the person. LOL

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA

monaddave Wrote: > #3 - Could this be Cedar Point...
A very intriguing possibility! Yes, I believe Cedar Point had a siding separate from the DT ABS mains, but on which side??? I'll still lean toward Plymouth for this shot, with the idea that there was a 3rd mainline that predated the 1952 flood control construction project: The 2910 looks to be under heavy acceleration, so if the train is about to come out of a "siding" (as in Cedar Point) I don't believe the speed would be very high through the inevitable turnout. Plus the code lines on the right were on the south side from Ellinor pretty much all the way across the old Middle Division 1st District. That would make the 2910 moving westbound. So under the assumption the 2910 WAS a westbound she would not only be coming out of a "siding", but also be about negotiating hand-throw crossover switches (undoubtedly 10 MPH) to get back on the North (westbound) Main. The apparent speed of the 2910 is the telling factor, and it makes me think Plymouth on a 3rd main. Another point: I don't believe Cedar Point had anywhere near the amount of foliage that shows in this image #3...

Author: ddg wrote: > I don't think #2 is between Saffordville and Ellinor.
I was never comfortable with Saffordville/Ellinor as the location. But in keeping with the spirit of the thread I suggested this location because of the information attached to the negative. I even provided "arguments" just for the sake of discussion. Even though quite a few pieces of information accompanying these negatives have since been proven completely wrong I have to admit there are some notable similarities in this shot & the Saffordville/Ellinor postulation.

The "Santa Fe" 2-10-4s certainly didn't run regularly across the Middle Division, but that's not to say they NEVER ran across the Middle. I remember reading the late Mr. Lloyd Stagner's description of one of the 2-10-4s having to struggle one night with an immense amount of eastbound tonnage between El Dorado & Emporia. I think this story might have been within Lloyd's landmark Trains Magazine article on Santa Fe's 2-10-4s. I believe it was in 1975 (August?), and the entire issue was devoted to Lloyd's authorship...

Lance



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/14 10:23 by santafe199.

> the sunlight angle would also support [pic #1]
> being train #3.

At 1422 the sun would be shining
on the west side of the depot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/14 10:47 by timz.

timz Wrote: At 1422 the sun would be shining on the west side of the depot.

Agreed. In 1946...

But since we don't have a definitive date for this shot I have to admit the possibility that train #3's scheduled pass through Ellinor might have been a little earlier in some other era, which might support the info accompanying the negative. That's easy enough to investigate if one has Middle Division employee timetables completely spanning the 40s & 50s. (I don't) AGAIN, I'm just going with the info on the negative to keep within the spirit of my thread. Whenever Evan (anybody remember him???) gets around to chewing on this thread I posted for him I'm sure we'll have a lot of answers...

Lance



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/14 15:59 by santafe199.

Sure nuff-- in 1953 #3 was due out of Emporia at 1100.

Guess it carried passengers until the 1960s?
So probably in the public timetable?

Looks like in the third pic it might read 121 on the signal.

rich6000 Wrote: > Looks like in the third pic it might read 121 on the signal.

Thanks Rich! I tried to "see" a definite number on that cantilever, but couldn't narrow it down. If it is MP 121-something that would eliminate any doubt this being very close to the old Plymouth location. Close enough to go ahead and call it Plymouth in my books...

Lance

Not sure that I can agree with 121 on the semaphore. Looks more like 1<something>3 to me, but I'm not sure what the middle symbol would be.

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