Nostalgia & History > How old is old?

In another thread there was the comment
> Twenty years is a lot longer than it seems when these beautiful units were new and roaming the ATSF.

That got me wondering. How old is the average age of a Class 1 engine fleet these days? And about how old is the oldest engine in regular service on a Class 1 or equivalent? (I know there is a lot of ancient stuff running at OREM or the like, but I'm wondering about the equipment age for a company that hauls freight rather than tourists or photographers for a living.)

Are engines lasting longer these days, or is the average age of the fleet newer than it has been in the past?
 

Interesting question, I have not kept abreast of Class 1 locomotive purchases, but considering the last question of your post.

Some railroads, like SP and others were still using steam locomotives from the late 1890s and through the 19 oughts up until
the end of steam in the late 50s, early 60s!

There are still some 1st generation diesel from the late 30s and newer still running today on shortlines, Class 3 railroads.

The life span of these early diesels, primarily EMD and some Alcos, is pretty amazing when you look at the service they performed for the Class 1s
and later as 'hand me downs' to Class 2 and 3 railroads!

50-60-70+ years old and still chugging away!!

Mike

lwilton Wrote:

> That got me wondering. How old is the average age
> of a Class 1 engine fleet these days?

This is the URL for The Diesel Shop's Class 1 rosters, complete with build dates: http://thedieselshop.us/INDEXCLSS.html

If you genuinely want an answer that's not merely a wild guess, grab a calculator and have at it with the data on that site.

> And about
> how old is the oldest engine in regular
> service on a Class 1 or equivalent?

That gets into "grandpa's 100-year-old axe" territory - how much rebuilding can you do to a locomotive and still have it be considered "old?"  Are BNSF's SD9-3's about 60 years old because the frame was welded together back in the 50's and the long hood still looks like an SD9, or are they 16 years old because that's when they assumed their current form with an angular cab and microprocessor control?  If they are 60 years old because of the frames and hoods, then how about BNSF's GP28-2's that re-used GP9 frames and sound like GP9's, but don't look at all like GP9's?  How about Railpower Gensets that re-used GP9 frames but don't look or sound like GP9's? 

> Are engines lasting longer these days, or is the
> average age of the fleet newer than it has been in
> the past?

SD90MAC-H's didn't last as long as SD45's did on UP, so engines these days aren't lasting as long as they did in the past. 
SD60's are lasting longer than SD45's did on UP, so engines these days are lasting longer than they did in the past.

The only figures I am aware of come from my following of the D&RGW from reading up on it during the 50's thru 90's period.  D&RGW seemed to get about 20 years out of many of their diesels before trading them in between the 1940's and the 1980's.  Hoever, toward the end, they did seem to run many of their 2nd generation diesels past the 25 and even 30 year mark - they had a pretty good maintenence program.  It seems SP was a bit different - they did get a long use out of many of their SD diesels but seems like many got a major rebuild (unlike the D&RGW diesels) well before the 20 year mark, maybe in as little as 10 years?  I think a lot of it has to do with how RR''s maintain their fleet.  Of course we do see alot of diesels from the 2nd generation rebuilt by various contractors etc. and still soldiering one 30, 40, 50 or more years after they were originally built.

Cheers, Jim Fitch

Another thing to factor in is that the average diesel locomoitve was available for service a lot more than the average steam locomotive. Therefore, the average diesel had a lot more miles and running time on them.

Gosh I thought the question was about people.  How old is old?  When just getting out of bed makes you sore.

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lwilton Wrote:
>
> > That got me wondering. How old is the average
> age
> > of a Class 1 engine fleet these days?
>
> This is the URL for The Diesel Shop's Class 1
> rosters, complete with build dates:
> http://thedieselshop.us/INDEXCLSS.html
>
> If you genuinely want an answer that's not merely
> a wild guess, grab a calculator and have at it
> with the data on that site.
>
> > And about
> > how old is the oldest engine in regular
> > service on a Class 1 or equivalent?
>
> That gets into "grandpa's 100-year-old axe"
> territory - how much rebuilding can you do to a
> locomotive and still have it be considered
> "old?"  Are BNSF's SD9-3's about 60 years old
> because the frame was welded together back in the
> 50's and the long hood still looks like an SD9, or
> are they 16 years old because that's when they
> assumed their current form with an angular cab and
> microprocessor control?  If they are 60 years old
> because of the frames and hoods, then how about
> BNSF's GP28-2's that re-used GP9 frames and sound
> like GP9's, but don't look at all like GP9's? 
> How about Railpower Gensets that re-used GP9
> frames but don't look or sound like GP9's? 
>
> > Are engines lasting longer these days, or is
> the
> > average age of the fleet newer than it has been
> in
> > the past?
>
> SD90MAC-H's didn't last as long as SD45's did on
> UP, so engines these days aren't lasting as long
> as they did in the past. 
> SD60's are lasting longer than SD45's did on UP,
> so engines these days are lasting longer than they
> did in the past.

Geez, Evan, talk about a non-answer!  

Most locomotive ages are calculated from the original build date, as near as I can
determine.  Hopefully someone not as math challenged as I am and with a lot of
time can figure this out.  

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA

ntharalson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Most locomotive ages are calculated from the
> original build date, as near as I can
> determine.  Hopefully someone not as math
> challenged as I am and with a lot of
> time can figure this out.  
>
> Nick Tharalson,
> Marion, IA

For clarification, the big class one railroads pretty much use duty cycle and mega-watt hours for determining prime mover and rotating electrical component overhauls. As an example, at the time of the BNSF merger, the main line AT&SF road power, i.e. pretty much the newer inter model units, received a major overhaul at one million to 1.2 million miles. However, the BN "coal power" was due the major overhaul at 650,000 to 750,000 miles. The average monthly miles for the AT&SF power was in excess of 20,000 per month, while the BN power was only 9000 to 11,000 miles per month.

The wear on the prime mover was almost the same for the AT&SF and BN units, due to almost the identical meg-watt hours. Generally the rotating electrical components, i.e. traction motors experienced a harsher environment due to the constant high train speeds, at lower throttle settings, on the AT&SF units. Conversely, the prime mover took the brunt on BN units, due to the much high throttle 8 times at slower train speeds.

Hopes this helps answer some questions.

Oregon Pacific operates SW-1 #100 in daily service on our East Portland Division. She was delivered new to Portland Traction Company in February 1952 and has seen continuous service for 62 plus years.  Her frame, cab and hood are original; varnished wood cab trim is original as is the factory green cab interior. The 6-567A prime mover is original (but has been fitted with "B" power assemblies) as is the D15C main generator. The 10KW auxiliary generator is also original and she still retains her 6BL air (although components swapped out for FRA inspections) as well as original friction bearing trucks and D27 traction motors.

By present day standards most would consider her "old" and if not for EMD parts availability she would probably be "dead" but as long as she keeps moving freight and making money she's just a "kid" to us!

Check her out @ www.oregonpacificrr.com

Dick Samuels
Oregon Pacific Railroad

ntharalson Wrote:

> Geez, Evan, talk about a non-answer!  

I'm not saying they aren't interesting questions, but getting meaningful answers isn't as simple as it sounds.  As you point out, it would take someone with "a lot of time" to calculate just the current fleet average ages.  Calculating fleet average ages for previous years for comparison will take orders of magnitude more time, and the answers won't necessarily be all that informative.  In 1960, the average age of Class 1 diesel fleets will be pretty young simply because the railroads only just dieselized.  In 1970 the average will be older because a lot of those units from 1960 were still around, and of course there will be variation by railroad depending on how well heeled each one was.  Given the massive consolidation of the Class 1's since then, is it even possible to make an apples-to-apples, then-and-now comparison of average fleet ages for any Class 1 other than maybe KCS?  And then there is the sticky wicket of capital rebuilds...read on...

> Most locomotive ages are calculated from the
> original build date, as near as I can
> determine.  

For us railfans it usually is, but not always.  You probably wouldn't say a Santa Fe CF7 was built in 1950 even though the F7 it came from was built in 1950, but you probably would say one of their chopnosed GP7u's was built in 1950 if the GP7 it came from was built in 1950.  So the "rebuilt GP7" ends up being 20+ years older than the "rebuilt F7" for railfan purposes.  For Santa Fe's accounting, both locomotives underwent capital rebuilds that restarted their depreciation clocks, so they were both "new" when they rolled out of the Cleburne Shops, and their blue cards would both list "build dates" in the 1970's or 80's.  Of course, mechanically their guts were nearly identical and still very much 1950's technology, so internally they were both old. 

If you look at Santa Fe's roster in 1990 and attempt to calculate the average age of the fleet, which date you choose to use for the "new" date will have a big influence on the average.  Chico hadn't bought a "new" 6-axle locomotive since 1982, so if you go by original build date, the fleet will seem pretty old.  The reason they hadn't bought a new 6-axle unit since 1982 is that they had been busy rebuilding SD40's, SD45's, F45's, FP45's, SD45-2's, and U36C's instead of trading them in on "new" power.  If you calculate the average fleet age using the remanufacturing date (as the railroad certainly would have), the fleet wouldn't seem nearly as old. 

When talking about the average age of the Union Pacific fleet for advertising or public releases we used to consider 15 years as the dividing line between younger and older.
JB

Thanks guys for the replies! It sounds like a number could be calculated wiht a buhc of work, but I don't know if the result would be particularly meaningful.

This makes me start to wonder oif anyone knows an answer with what they consider to be reasonable assurance, or if it just isn't that interesting a question in the first place.

You would think the Class 1 accountants would be real interested in the average fleet age in terms of depreciation cycles and how much they can get back from the Feds in taxes. So you would think that the Class 1's must have an "average fleet age" number (or maybe several of them) somewhere in the accounting department. On the other hand, if the Class 1's still have their own maintainance organizations, I'd expect that someone there should (whether they do or not) have some ideas on the average fleet age, since older things usually require more maintanance expense. But maybe the maintainance guy's number (if there is such a thing) might be completely different from the accountant's number.

And certainly the PR department occasionally wants to run an ad that sais something like "Youngest fleet in the industry!" or the like, wit glowing words of why this means they should get your business. But as long as nobody looks closely, that number might well come out of some VP's hat.