Nostalgia & History > Gyrolights

Why did SP do away with them?? Where they a pain to keep up??

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Essentially, an FRA mandate says that if the locomotive is equipped with it (in this case, that "it" being the Gyralight) than it must be maintained. All those moving parts do wear out, yet needed to be maintained for the locomotives to be in compliance. It was easier for the financially struggling SP to do away with them than to maintain them. I believe the idea of using the yellow beacons which replaced the Gyralights came from the AT&SF during the two companies courtship prior to the ICC merger denial, but am not sure if the becons installation was legally necessary as a replacement for the Gyralight. 
As always, corrections/additions welcome!

Desmond Praetzel, "4451 Puff"

>Why did SP do away with them?? Where they a pain to keep up??

It was a maintenance cost decision by the motive power department after the D&RG got involved. I know the guy who made it, and I didn't agree with it (and no I'm not going to tell you his name). I still think gyralites are better than those ditch lights.

For whatever reason, SP8479 had a yellow beacon along the a gyralight many years before the aborted merger.

4451Puff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Essentially, an FRA mandate says that if the
> locomotive is equipped with it (in this case, that
> "it" being the Gyralight) than it must be
> maintained. All those moving parts do wear out,
> yet needed to be maintained for the locomotives to
> be in compliance. It was easier for the
> financially struggling SP to do away with them
> than to maintain them. I believe the idea of
> using the yellow beacons which replaced the
> Gyralights came from the AT&SF during the two
> companies courtship prior to the ICC merger
> denial, but am not sure if the becons installation
> was legally necessary as a replacement for the
> Gyralight. 
> As always, corrections/additions welcome!
>
> Desmond Praetzel, "4451 Puff"

From this engineers standpoint, there's no question about the effectiveness concerning ditchlights and Gryralites.  Every emergency vehicle theese days has the flashing white lights to the front.  So, people are used to seeing them every day.  The oscillating light meant there's no question a train is coming.  The flashing ditch lights are useless as a warning.......period.

i remember the kcs used to have BOTH gyra lights AND ditch lights.....

66

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Why did SP do away with them?? Where they a pain
> to keep up??
>
> It was a maintenance cost decision by the motive
> power department after the D&RG got involved. I
> know the guy who made it, and I didn't agree with
> it (and no I'm not going to tell you his name). I
> still think gyralites are better than those ditch
> lights.

The truth can now be reveled about why & when the SP Mechanical Dept. "got rid of the Mars/Gyralights"! 

As the Sales Engineer for EMD, we had a big "settlement of details" meet at Number one Market Place, there in San Francisco, in early July of 1973 (or maybe 1974), for a huge order of all sorts of various different units. In those days, the SP was required by the "Clayton Act" to formally request open bids for motive power, since someone from the General Motors Board of Directors, also sat on the SP Board of Directors. Thus, SP conducted their "Clayton Act Open Bids" for hundreds and hundreds of units, so that they could effectively work off one bid for quite some years, without having to go through the process every year or so.

As part of this Settlement of Details Meeting, there was a fairly outspoken representative from the SP Accounting Dept., who tended to question damned near every extra & modification the Mechanical Dept. was specifying. As the EMD Sales Engineer, I generally conducted the flow of the meeting, working through the technical agenda, of all the SP "extras", based off the previous orders. When I got to the "SP Special Light Package", with the associated price, the Accounting Dept. guy naturally interrupted the proceedings, again. A representative from the Mechanical Dept. Engineering Staff, gave the explanation that the various Mars and/or Pyle National Gyralights were required by the State of California, and the SP had been using them since VERY early in the 20th century. The EMD Regional Sales Manager, who knew that I was a pretty knowledgeable steam enthusiast, and had clued me in advance that this subject was going to be a big "bone of contention" during the meeting. The "Boss" asked the Chief Mechanical Officer (can't remember his name, but he and I got along great once he learned that I was knowledgeable about SP steam power), I would explain the history of the Mars Lights on the SP. I then explained that the first locomotives to received the Mars Signal Lights were the GS-4 Class 4-8-4 Daylights, delivered in early 1941, and a bit of the history of WHY they were designed and installed on steam passenger locomotives. Also, it was NOT a "California State Law", as the Santa Fe did NOT have oscillating signal lights on all their locomotives, especially switching units.

The discussion then developed into finding out IMMEDIATELY exactly what the California law was, if indeed there even was one. By the next day, during the continuation of the 3 day meeting, someone in the Mechanical Dept. must have had the Law Dept. research "the law" and determined that there was indeed NO SUCH LAW. The policy of oscillating signal lights had simply been passed down from 1941, with the actual policy being, "Because, that's the way we've ALWAYS done it!". As a result, the "SP Special Light Package" was dropped, and it didn't take but a few months and the oscillating signal lights began being removed from all SP units.

As the late Paul Harvey was prone to say, "And, THAT is the REST of the story.". 

In my opinion find it easier to estimate the distance to/from an approaching train if it has ditch lights than any moving or flashing light.

as far as i am concerned, NOTHING gets a motorist's attention, especially at night, like a gyra/mars light.........

66



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/17 08:28 by goneon66.

railstiesballast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my opinion find it easier to estimate the
> distance to/from an approaching train if it has
> ditch lights than any moving or flashing light.

​That is the exact reason why they are mandated today. The triangular shape of the light package becomes more defined as the train approaches. Much more effective for judging distance than a single point of light, oscillating or not.

NZ

HotWater Wrote:

> The truth can now be reveled about why & when the
> SP Mechanical Dept. "got rid of the
> Mars/Gyralights"! 
>
> As the Sales Engineer for EMD, we had a big
> "settlement of details" meet at Number one Market
> Place, there in San Francisco, in early July of
> 1973 (or maybe 1974), for a huge order of all
> sorts of various different units. In those days,
> the SP was required by the "Clayton Act" to
> formally request open bids for motive power, since
> someone from the General Motors Board of
> Directors, also sat on the SP Board of Directors.
> Thus, SP conducted their "Clayton Act Open Bids"
> for hundreds and hundreds of units, so that they
> could effectively work off one bid for quite some
> years, without having to go through the process
> every year or so.
>
> As part of this Settlement of Details Meeting,
> there was a fairly outspoken representative from
> the SP Accounting Dept., who tended to question
> damned near every extra & modification the
> Mechanical Dept. was specifying. As the EMD Sales
> Engineer, I generally conducted the flow of the
> meeting, working through the technical agenda, of
> all the SP "extras", based off the previous
> orders. When I got to the "SP Special Light
> Package", with the associated price, the
> Accounting Dept. guy naturally interrupted the
> proceedings, again. A representative from the
> Mechanical Dept. Engineering Staff, gave the
> explanation that the various Mars and/or Pyle
> National Gyralights were required by the State of
> California, and the SP had been using them since
> VERY early in the 20th century. The EMD Regional
> Sales Manager, who knew that I was a pretty
> knowledgeable steam enthusiast, and had clued me
> in advance that this subject was going to be a big
> "bone of contention" during the meeting. The
> "Boss" asked the Chief Mechanical Officer (can't
> remember his name, but he and I got along great
> once he learned that I was knowledgeable about SP
> steam power), I would explain the history of the
> Mars Lights on the SP. I then explained that the
> first locomotives to received the Mars Signal
> Lights were the GS-4 Class 4-8-4 Daylights,
> delivered in early 1941, and a bit of the history
> of WHY they were designed and installed on steam
> passenger locomotives. Also, it was NOT a
> "California State Law", as the Santa Fe did NOT
> have oscillating signal lights on all their
> locomotives, especially switching units.
>
> The discussion then developed into finding out
> IMMEDIATELY exactly what the California law was,
> if indeed there even was one. By the next day,
> during the continuation of the 3 day meeting,
> someone in the Mechanical Dept. must have had the
> Law Dept. research "the law" and determined that
> there was indeed NO SUCH LAW. The policy of
> oscillating signal lights had simply been passed
> down from 1941, with the actual policy being,
> "Because, that's the way we've ALWAYS done it!".
> As a result, the "SP Special Light Package" was
> dropped, and it didn't take but a few months and
> the oscillating signal lights began being removed
> from all SP units.

Are you sure it was 1973? Because the order for 8200s (SD40-T2s) delivered in 1980 had full light packages, front and back.

The first removal of gyralights that I recall were the 6800 rebuilds (SD45-T2s) from Sacramento, circa 1986.   

BCHellman Wrote:


> Are you sure it was 1973? Because the order for
> 8200s (SD40-T2s) delivered in 1980 had full light
> packages, front and back.
>
> The first removal of gyralights that I recall were
> the 6800 rebuilds (SD45-T2s) from Sacramento,
> circa 1986.   

That 1986 date pre-dates the D&RGW merger (1988), so that may take some of the validity out of the theory that it was a D&RGW decision to remove the oscilators. Besides, wasn't the D&RGW itself using Gyralights up until it acquired the SP?

Desmond Praetzel, "4451 Puff"

The GP40-2s built in 1982 (SP 7240-7247 and SSW 7248-7273) also had the full light package.

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> as far as i am concerned, NOTHING gets a
> motorist's attention, especially at night, like a
> gyra/mars light.........
>
> 66

I agree, from a railfan view it was awesome to see! I still will never forget my dad and I chasing a SP Freight back in 86 from Lancaster to Vincent Grade and the coolest thing was seeing the reflection of the granite bouncing off the billboards as we stayed ahead of him on Sierra Highway!

Posted from Android

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> as far as i am concerned, NOTHING gets a
> motorist's attention, especially at night, like a
> gyra/mars light.........
>
> 66

Especially when the train comes looming out of thick fog--that beam swept the area, and it looked almost threatening!

I grew up a couple of blocks from the SP tracks on Colorado St. (that's right STREET.  It isn't boulevard until the L.A. city line on the east end.)  In th evenings and at night you coud see those SPs coming ten minutes before they arrived.  You knew to stay off or away in plenty of time because of those oscillators!

Stand at la Grange Road Metra station in suburban Illinois  and watch Metra's evening Dinky parade on BNSF come at you with that Light package!!!!  I never tire of this!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/17 12:46 by Quakerengr.

>That 1986 date pre-dates the D&RGW merger (1988), so that may take some of the validity out of the theory that it was a D&RGW decision to remove the oscilators.

>Besides, wasn't the D&RGW itself using Gyralights up until it acquired the SP?

Second statement correct, first statement shaky to the point of falling over. When my source described the decision process, he said it ws reached during a meeting of a committee consistiong of SP and D&RG motive power management types (he was on the committee). The D&RG folks were puzzled because they didn't have the wear problem, and the difference turned out to be that while the SP ran them continuously, the D&RG turned them on only over grade crossings.

For a brief period of time the SP bought locos which had imitation gyralites, which were aimed off at an angle to each side and flashed alternately. Although I was working for the SP at the time, I'm not going to dispute dates and timings of the change because I didn't pay attention to that sort of stuff, just the dates on the paychecks.