Nostalgia & History > F Unit Friday: NP at Lombard, MT

Like last week's post of the Denver Zephyr in Denver, https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4228940, this slide is also from the set of 50 Blackhawk Films duplicates I acquired.  Specifically, this slide is of a westbound passenger train at Lombard, MT (location identified over on RR Picture Archives by Tom Dethmers).  On the other side of the Missouri River can be seen the Milwaukee Road, which swings over the river and the NP (out-of-frame to the right and behind the photographer's position), entering Sixteen Mile Canyon on its journey east.  Meanwhile, the NP line seen here heads towards Helena and Mullan Pass.  The date and photographer are unknown.

Now let's talk about the train:

Looking at the consist of this train, with 6 baggage-express cars (second of which is a heavyweight) and 4 passenger cars, I think this is the Alaskan and not the Fast Mail, as there's no RPO.  Regarding the passenger cars, there appears to be 2 chairs (coaches) and a diner or lounge, but the last car is interesting: by all means, it appears to be a non-painted Budd car.  The only non-painted Budd cars on the NP roster were the Slumbercoaches, but initially I didn't think that's what we're seeing here, as I couldn't see any visible sign of the offset upper and lower windows of the duplex roomettes.  Rather, I was thinking this might be one of the Burlington Route's business cars, either the Budd-built lightweight Burlington, or the rebuilt-to-look-like-a-Budd heavyweight The Round-Up.  Question is, what's a CB&Q business car doing on a NP train in Montana?  And if so, why on a secondary train such as the Alaskan?  And even if it isn't a CB&Q business car, and is indeed a sleeper, either a Slumbercoach or a foreign road car such as the PRR's unique Budd-built 11DB sleeper Elberton*, again, why on the Alaskan?

*PRR's only 11DB sleeper, the Elberton (rebuilt from a 10RM-6DB car that had been ordered for the SAL service pool) was known to make appearances on the NP in Montana, specifically in Summer travel season Yellowstone Park service, along with UP and IC 11DB cars (the IC cars got repainted to Loewy Two-Tone Green), but this doesn't seem to be the right train or location to see such a car.

Then I did a second look-over of the high-resolution scan on my computer, and now I'm thinking the last car could be a Slumbercoach.  The problem is, these Blackhawk duplicates are not very sharp as compared to originals or even name brand (i.e., Ektachrome) duplicates, so it makes car identification somewhat difficult.

But, if that is the case, then there's still the question of why a Slumbercoach is on the Alaskan and not the North Coast Limited or Mainstreeter.  Perhaps a deadhead move to Seattle to make up for a Slumbercoach in the consist of either of the primary trains that had a mechanical issue?

Or, maybe this was a car that had had a mechanical problem at Chicago, had to be set out and repaired, and is now being moved west to be put back into its normal consist before said consist departs back east?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/17 02:51 by Rainier_Rails.

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The Slumbercoach and two tone green makes this the Mainstreeter. Could be Christmass storage mail after the 1967 discontinuance of the RPO. Post 1967, most pictures I've seen of this train have 1 or 2 baggage cars.

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Since this train is fully painted in the two-tone Loewy green paint scheme, which first began to appear in 1952, it may be westbound train #1, the Mainstreeter, rather than the Alaskan.  Mainstreeter replaced Alaskan as NP's second-level train on November 16, 1952.  If the last car is indeed a Slumbercoach, then this photo is certainly the Mainstreeter, since Slumbercoachs first appeared on the NP in 1959.

This must be the Mainstreeter, both because of the consist and because the North Coast Limited didn't take this route (which goes through Helena) but instead took the route through Butte.  The slumbercoach clinches the identification, as in the last years that was the only sleeping accommodation on the Mainstreeter.  I took it from Billings right after Christmas 1969 and that is what I rode. By that time the Alaskan was long gone, replaced by the Mainstreeter.

Definitely a westbound Mainstreeter and as previous poster noted, looks like a consist in the 1967 time frame.  The Alaskan hadn't existed since the early 1950's.

I am almost 100% positive that this is a photo taken by Matthew J. Herson.  There is a photo on page 51 of his book "Northern Pacific - A Personal Perspective" almost identical to this one.  The caption in the book reads "Passengers aboard the westbound Mainstreeter enjoy the dramatic scenery along the Missouri River in Lombard, Montana on September 27, 1967.  F7 #6511C heads up the consist."  The train and location in your photo and in the book are identical, but in the book, the train is a couple car lengths further down the track than in your slide, so it appears that Herson took a series of slides that day and one ended up in his collection and book, and the one taken a couple seconds earlier ended up as one of the slides (or a duplicate) in your collection.  Of course I suppose it is also possible someone was with Herson that day standing beside him taking photos. But it is definitely the same train, the consist is identical, the same baggage car door is open, and all the vegetation and colors are identical.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/17 11:41 by czephyr17.

Nice shot!  Old NP RR passenger train crews, based at Billings, MT and worked between Billings and Helena, MT. Livingston, MT. based engine crews worked between Livingston and Helena, MT.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/17 10:10 by RodneyZona.

While the four unit AABA locomotive consist could have happen any time, such arrangements were far more common in the late sixties than in the early fifties.

Dave

Thanks to everyone for the replies!

I guess I misunderstood the histories of the Alaskan and Mainstreeter.  I thought that like the Oriental Limited on the GN when the Western Star entered service, that when the Mainstreeter entered service on the North Coast Limited's old schedule, that the Alaskan had been bumped down to a third-tier service, not discontinued.  Mea culpa.

czephyr17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am almost 100% positive that this is a photo taken by Matthew J. Herson.
> There is a photo on page 51 of his book "Northern Pacific -
> A Personal Perspective" almost identical to this one.
> The caption in the book reads "Passengers aboard the
> westbound Mainstreeter enjoy the dramatic scenery along the
> Missouri River in Lombard, Montana on September 27, 1967.
> F7 #6511C heads up the consist."

Thanks, CZ17, for identifying the photographer and date!

Although this brings up a question: given the late date (after RPO removal), but the fact that it's not during the Christmas season, why are there 6 baggage cars?

Rainier_Rails Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I guess I misunderstood the histories of the
> Alaskan and Mainstreeter.  I thought that like
> the Oriental Limited on the GN when the Western
> Star entered service, that when the Mainstreeter
> entered service on the North Coast Limited's old
> schedule, that the Alaskan had been bumped down to
> a third-tier service, not discontinued.  Mea
> culpa.
>

Actually you were not totally wrong about a third tier service on parts of the route.  In November 1952, when the North Coast Limited was sped up and the Mainstreeter took the NCL's old schedule (except for being routed through Helena instead of Butte), the Alaskan was eliminated.  However the NP did continue to operate a third train between St. Paul and Glendive on the east end (trains 3 and 4) as an all-stops train between those points, and also a third train between Spokane and Seattle on the west end (trains 5 and 6, nicknamed "Sagebrush Annie" by the locals).  The east end trains were gradually cut back, even as late as 1966 they were still operating between St. Paul and Jamestown, ND, however by 1967 they were gone.  The "Sagebrush Annie" was discontinued in 1960.

>
> Although this brings up a question: given the late
> date (after RPO removal), but the fact that it's
> not during the Christmas season, why are there 6
> baggage cars?

Someone can probably provide more detail than I can, but even though the RPOs were discontinued, the post office still contracted with the railroads to move a lot of mail in baggage storage cars (sealed from origin to destination).  The baggage car in your picture with the door open is probably the one used for passenger baggage and local express; the remainder were probably sealed mail cars.  That said, by 1968 you seldom saw more than one baggage car on the Mainstreeter (to handle luggage and what little express remained), but the GN Western Star still handled a lot of mail, so I assume the mail contract for this lane was consolidated with the GN around that time.  In April, 1971, a couple weeks prior to Amtrak taking over and the Western Star being discontinued, the year old BN started a new high priority intermodal freight service between Chicago and Seattle, train #3, which they initially called the "Pacific Zip", to handle the mail (as well as other intermodal traffic).  This was the highest priority BN train through the remainder of its history, and continues to this day to be the highest priority train on BNSF's northern corridor, though now its symbols is "Z CHCSSE" (Chicago Cicero-South Seattle).  Also, today's train is much more tailored around UPS than the USPS, and of course handles a multitude of other high priority customers as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/17 17:56 by czephyr17.

Thanks, CZ17, for the additional info!

The westbound train is east of the Lombard siding. Note the Milwaukee Road across the river.

To the right is west on the NP and to the left is west on the MILW.

To the right is eastbound on the Missouri River.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/17 09:35 by fbe.

What ever happened to Matt Herson?  I did some railfanning with him and he was a good guy.

In 2016, Morning Sun Books published Northern Pacific A Personal Perspective  by Matthew J. Herson.  Most of the photos in this book were taken by Matt Herson.  The photo leading this thread appears on page 51, with the following caption: "Passengers aboard the westbound Mainstreeter enjoy the dramatic scenery along the Missouri River in Lombard, Montana on September 27, 1967.  F7 #6511C heads up the consist."

​Sorry I didn't take a moment to check for this photo in this newly acquired book before writing my previous comment in this thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/17 12:20 by WoodwardEJ.

WoodwardEJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In 2016, Morning Sun Books published
> Northern Pacific A Personal Perspective  by Matthew J. Herson.
> Most of the photos in this book were taken by Matt Herson.
> The photo leading this thread appears on page 51, with the following caption:
> "Passengers aboard the westbound Mainstreeter enjoy the dramatic scenery
> along the Missouri River in Lombard, Montana on September 27, 1967.
> F7 #6511C heads up the consist."
>
> ​Sorry I didn't take a moment to check for this photo in this
> newly acquired book before writing my previous comment in this thread.

E.J.,

The slide I posted and the slide which appeared in Mr. Herson's book are of the same train, but are actually two different slides, as posted earlier by CZ17:

czephyr17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am almost 100% positive that this is a photo taken by Matthew J. Herson.
> There is a photo on page 51 of his book "Northern Pacific - A Personal Perspective"
> almost identical to this one.
> The caption in the book reads
> "Passengers aboard the westbound Mainstreeter enjoy the dramatic scenery
> along the Missouri River in Lombard, Montana on September 27, 1967.
> F7 #6511C heads up the consist."
> The train and location in your photo and in the book are identical,
> but in the book, the train is a couple car lengths further down the track than in your slide,
> so it appears that Herson took a series of slides that day
> and one ended up in his collection and book, and the one taken a couple seconds earlier
> ended up as one of the slides (or a duplicate) in your collection.
> Of course I suppose it is also possible someone was
> with Herson that day standing beside him taking photos.
> But it is definitely the same train, the consist is identical,
> the same baggage car door is open, and all the vegetation and colors are identical.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/17 15:23 by Rainier_Rails.