Nostalgia & History > Back when multiple unit controls were new...

What was the process to introduce multiple unit diesel controls on US railroads?  Two and three units controlled from the lead locomotive.  Did they just arrive one day, and guys were given a day of training? Or were there negotiations with the Engineers and Firemen etc to pave the way?

I'm sure that replacing manned helpers didn't go down easily, and many people remembered the days of manned second units in the recent era of steam.

Not entirely sure about specific answer to your question, BUT, the reason F units were labeled ####(A)(B)(C)(D) was to eliminate union demand to have a crew in each power unit. 

There was definitely road blocks and red tape to be crossed.  As far as the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen was concerned each individual diesel was a locomotive and needed it's own engine crew.  This is why some of the first multiple diesel units were drawbar connected (i.e. 2 and 3 unit FTs).  The thinking was if they were inseperable then they counted as 1 locomotive and needed 1 crew.

As union contracts were renegotiated to recognize multiple units as a single locomotive that needed only 1 crew the railroads began to order diesel units with couplers at both ends and no permanent drawbars.  This happened very early in the F unit era.  It pretty much became the standard by the time the F3 was in production.

Thank you.  The semi-permanent connection on the FT makes a lot of sense in this context.

Well, although a minor contributing factor with the "front section" drawbar connected to the "rear section" ( the term A and B unit had not yet been invented in 1938 when the EMC/EMD  FT design began) involving crew unions, the REAL reason for the drawbars was two fold:

1) At the time, i.e. 1938, the only draft gear assembly available was the rear draft gear from current 4-8-4 tenders. That large draft gear assembly was VERY large, long, and robust, and there was not sufficient available space on the rear end of the "A Unit" nor on the front end of the "B Unit" for such larger draft gear/coupler components. Thus the "B Unit" was drawbar coupled to the rear of the "A Unit". 

2) The "A Unit" did NOT have a set of batteries, which were carried in the "B Unit", thus an FTA could not even be started, without it being coupled electrically with its "B Unit".

During the famous FT 103 demonstration tour, naturally the very first customer was the AT&SF Rwy..  However, the Santa Fe would NOT tolerate the drawbar connected "A & B Unit" configuration, so both Santa Fe and EMD put the pressure on Minor Graft Gear Co. to design/develop a "shortened" draft gear and coupler arrangement designed to fit on the rear end of the FTA and the front end of the FTB. The rest is history, as all subsequent "F Units" had a much different underframe and truck spacing.

How was the battery issue addressed after Santa Fe made it's FT A's and B's separable?

MU control was invented by Frank Sprague in the early 1890s.  The first application at that time was on the L in Chicago.  It was subsequently applied to basically all electric railcarcar operations.
MU controls on electric freight and passenger motors immediately followed.
Thus, MU control had been around some time before its application to diesel electric locomotives.
In 1937, the railroads reached an agreement with the unions that a fireman was required on locomotives weighing 90,000 LB or more.
Also, in 1937, EMC started building passenger diesel locomotives with MU control.  Their first model was the EA.
This was the background, when EMC introduced the FT freight diesel locomotive in 1939.
As far as diesel locomotive crews, for those 90,000 LB or more and regardless of the number of units, the railroads unilaterally assigned an engineer, required for operation, and a firemen, required by contract. Sometimes in the early diesel days, a traveling mechanic was also assigned to the engines.
If the unions were unhappy, they could file a grievance and then negotiate the issue.  The railroads obviously did not want an issue made of crew size, having a crew for each unit. 
Ultimately, the unions never made a serious demand for the railroads to assign a crew to each unit.
However, retaining firemen was another matter.  Gradually they were phased out.  I believe around 1970, there was a ruling that firemen were no longer required on freight and switching locomotives.  However, the positions were phased out over about fifteen years .
ALLEN                 

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How was the battery issue addressed after Santa Fe
> made it's FT A's and B's separable?

Both the A and the B were equipped with batteries.  That was no real problem for EMC.
The real problem posed in separating the A and B was that, as HotWater mentioned, a new draft gear had to be developed to accomodate standard couplers on the ends where there had been drawbars.
ALLEN
   

> How was the battery issue addressed after Santa Fe made it's FT A's and B's separable?

If you're referring to the control system, the power which operates the control system(s) on trailing locomotive(s) comes from the controlling unit. Where that unit receives the power to operate the control system is a matter for a separate discussion.

HotWater's explanation about by the FTs were semi-permanently coupled makes a lot of sense -- besides he's in a position to know. Union/Company issues regarding the fireman on diesels is a very complex matter and a dispute which lasted from approximately 1920 through the 1985 manning agreement. Some railroads (such as the WP and NWP) didn't have fireman's agreements (with the BLF&E, that is).

krm152 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CPR_4000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How was the battery issue addressed after Santa
> Fe
> > made it's FT A's and B's separable?
>
> Both the A and the B were equipped with
> batteries. 

No, they were NOT!!!

That was no real problem for EMC.
> The real problem posed in separating the A and B
> was that, as HotWater mentioned, a new draft gear
> had to be developed to accomodate standard
> couplers on the ends where there had been
> drawbars.
> ALLEN
   

HotWater Wrote:
> krm152 Wrote:
> > CPR_4000 Wrote:

> > > How was the battery issue addressed after
> > > Santa Fe made it's FT A's and B's separable?
> >
> > Both the A and the B were equipped with
> > batteries. 
>
> No, they were NOT!!!

There are a number of photos around showing single Santa Fe FT's working in local service, so the A's with couplers on both ends must have gotten their own batteries at some point:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4239090
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,3266686
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,3266686,3267722#3267722
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,1359924

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, although a minor contributing factor with
> the "front section" drawbar connected to the "rear
> section" ( the term A and B unit had not yet been
> invented in 1938 when the EMC/EMD  FT design
> began)

Milwaukee 2 unit electrics were designated A and B starting in 1915.

=Larry Doyle

LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well, although a minor contributing factor with
> > the "front section" drawbar connected to the
> "rear
> > section" ( the term A and B unit had not yet
> been
> > invented in 1938 when the EMC/EMD  FT design
> > began)
>
> Milwaukee 2 unit electrics were designated A and B
> starting in 1915.
>
> =Larry Doyle

OK John. Guess I should have said, "...had not yet been invented in the EMC diesel locomotive world".

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
> > krm152 Wrote:
> > > CPR_4000 Wrote:
>
> > > > How was the battery issue addressed after
> > > > Santa Fe made it's FT A's and B's
> separable?
> > >
> > > Both the A and the B were equipped with
> > > batteries. 
> >
> > No, they were NOT!!!
>
> There are a number of photos around showing single
> Santa Fe FT's working in local service, so the A's
> with couplers on both ends must have gotten their
> own batteries at some point:
>
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,
> 4239090
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,
> 3266686
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,
> 3266686,3267722#3267722
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,
> 1359924

In the original A/B semi-permanently coupled arrangement, the batteries were in the A Unit.
See my post of today: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4257450
All B units equipped with a standard coupler instead of a drawbar were also outfitted with batteries. Additionally, all of the Santa Fe's B Units were also equipped with hostler controls and a fifth porthole in conjunction therewith so they could be moved about in engine terminals.
ALLEN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/17 08:38 by krm152.

ALLEN,

Thanks for the correction, concerning where the batteries were located. I knew, originally, only one section was built with the batteries, obviously the "A Unit", and battery cables were run/MU'ed to the "B Unit" for starting the prime mover in the "B Unit". Later, after the shorted draft gear & coupler arrangement was offered, quite a few roads removed the drawbar arrangement, installed full draft gear & couplers, and then also had to install batteries in the "B Units".