Canadian Railroads > "Via Rail pondering <CP> routing for suspended Canadian"

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/intercity/via-rail-pondering-alternative-ontario-routing-for-suspended-canadian.html

Just what EHH wanted. Hah.
What goes around comes around.

They should have never left the CP routing in the first place but of course politics got in the way. The CP route is far more scenic, and more populated. But what happens to all the people served by the "remote services" the Canadian provides on the CN routing? Then there's the issue of how to get the train into the ex. CN station in Winnipeg. We had to detour out on the CP a few years back and it involved quite a lengthy process. And what about congestion and accidents on the CP. Don't they run the same oil trains there as well? Here's hoping something can be worked. For me, flying to or from Winnipeg just to ride the train isn't an option and I enjoy taking this great train each year.

Would the Sudbury - White River RDC go bye-bye ? (It did co-exist when the Real Canadian was running).
Would the RDC's then have to serve Capreol - Hornepayne, since that was technically a protected, remote route ?

I'd expect EHH to put up a Royal fight. His stewardship at CN caused this: unmanageable freights, can't fit on sidings, bad track, bad bridges. Would Harper government listen to him given his safety violations, or does money talk ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/15 15:15 by joemvcnj.

The re-route would give passengers a view of the shoreline of Lake Superior.

East of Winnipeg, the freight traffic on CP is lighter.

eminence_grise Wrote:
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> The re-route would give passengers a view of the
> shoreline of Lake Superior.
>
> East of Winnipeg, the freight traffic on CP is
> lighter.


The remote services can probably be accommodated by a service that runs once a month.  It's within the meaning of "remote".

Remote does not mean survivalist.
Asking people to limit food and supply shopping and other business once a month is not realistic.

what does Canadian law say about service to remote communities?

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They should have never left the CP routing in
> the first place but of course politics got in the
> way. The CP route is far more scenic, and more
> populated. But what happens to all the people
> served by the "remote services" the Canadian
> provides on the CN routing? Then there's the issue
> of how to get the train into the ex. CN station in
> Winnipeg. We had to detour out on the CP a few
> years back and it involved quite a lengthy
> process. And what about congestion and accidents
> on the CP. Don't they run the same oil trains
> there as well? Here's hoping something can be
> worked. For me, flying to or from Winnipeg just to
> ride the train isn't an option and I enjoy taking
> this great train each year.

I thought CP and CN used the same Winnipeg station for passenger service? I am pretty sure it did at least during the VIA years as this is where the Canadian often arrived (after being on CP routing) and people could change to the Super Continental that sometimes just operated between Winnipeg and Vancouver via Jasper and also to/from the RDC Dayliner that operated between Sioux Lookout and Winnipeg for a time.

They should permanently re-route the Canadian on the CP route. As mentioned it is much more scenic than the CN route, there are more communities that would be brought "online" (particularly Thunder Bay) and thus make the train more user friendly, it would  likely be more fluid. It's a twice a week (or three times a week) train. Come on. Since there are no "staffed" stations and most stations are not even stations (flag stops with no real platform to sepak of) between Winnipeg and Capreol, it's not going to be that big of an undertaking from a station standpoint to re-arrange.   

I would think the RDC operation between White River and Sudbury would be cut, but their has been a push to get the RDC's to Thunder Bay anyway! So I actually see that as an improvement. But shift the RDC to be a train that operates between Winnipeg and Sioux Lookout or a stub train that operates overnight between Winnipeg and Sudbury (e.g. coach, Skyline, sleeper). Skyline functions as the food service car.  

VIA's going to be losing a LOT of money if they don't find some sort of alternative to get this train running by the time late April comes along and tour groups are already scheduled!

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> what does Canadian law say about service to remote
> communities?

Via receives a seperate subsidy from the Federal Government for "remote communities" where the transportation alternatives (road and aircaft) are not year round. 

If you have watched the TV series "Ice Road Truckers", you will have noted that ice roads only function in winter, and other road networks are only passable in summer.

Gradually, better road access is being built to the north, and some places that were remote when Via was created in 1978 are not longer without transportation alternatives.

I can't say what specific law covers "remote communities", however that Canadian Constitution of 1981 grants all Canadians equal rights, including "mobility".  The whole field of Constitution Law has vastly expanded in Canada since 1981.

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I thought CP and CN used the same Winnipeg
> station for passenger service? I am pretty sure it
> did at least during the VIA years as this is where
> the Canadian often arrived (after being on CP
> routing) and people could change to the Super
> Continental that sometimes just operated between
> Winnipeg and Vancouver via Jasper.......

Yes, after the transcontinental trains were consolidated at the CN Station in Winnipeg.....the Canadian used a 4 mile connecting track (CN Pine Falls Sub) on the east side of the city from CP at Manson/Pine Jct to CN at Beach Jct. My SPV Railroad Atlas shows all this track still in place as the Central Manitoba Railway.

To run on CP across Ontario.....it’s a no brainer. The westbound Canadian already leaves CN at Boyne/Reynolds and enters directional running on CP near Parry Sound.....but instead of switching back to CN at Wanup it could just continue west through Sudbury on CP.

Eastbound, the Canadian could go back on CN at the Wanup/St Cloud diamond where directional running begins (and its current route)  



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/15 16:20 by ghCBNS.

eminence_grise Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > what does Canadian law say about service to
> remote
> > communities?
>
> Via receives a seperate subsidy from the Federal
> Government for "remote communities" where the
> transportation alternatives (road and aircaft) are
> not year round. 
>
> If you have watched the TV series "Ice Road
> Truckers", you will have noted that ice roads only
> function in winter, and other road networks are
> only passable in summer.
>
> Gradually, better road access is being built to
> the north, and some places that were remote when
> Via was created in 1978 are not longer without
> transportation alternatives.
>
> I can't say what specific law covers "remote
> communities", however that Canadian Constitution
> of 1981 grants all Canadians equal rights,
> including "mobility".  The whole field of
> Constitution Law has vastly expanded in Canada
> since 1981.

Thanks for that explanation. 

If the Canadian is switched to CP and retains its 4 nightschedule…..the following timetable from Summer 1983 might be similar.

Westbound, the times for viewing along the north shore of Lake Superior would not be the best nor the 12:40 am arrival in Thunder Bay. Eastbound times are not so bad.

---

---

While the Canadian was on CP in Summer 1983, VIA still provided“remote” service to the line between Capreol and Winnipeg on trains #7 & #8.
The time I saw #8 at Winnipeg, consist was a Baggage Dorm with the Roomettes sold to the public along with a coach and café coach.     

---

Would the entire CP between Capreol and Winnipeg be considered a remote route today ?
Do remember that your PM Harper was trying to wiggle out of that with Algoma Central, possibly using title searches on property.

I suspect if a CP reroute occured, some distance similar to the current Sudbury - White River would be cherry-picked on CN for service within the capabilities of the RDC consist, making it a cost neutral move, save one-time expenses of re-installing passenger train facilities on the CP.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would the entire CP between Capreol and Winnipeg
> be considered a remote route today ?
>

The remote portion of CP is that which the Sudbury-White River operates on today. West of White River to Winnipeg, the Trans-Canada follows the CP closely.

However, if part of the reason for relocation would be to serve areas of population, Thunder Bay and Kenora are medium sized cities.

The Trans-Canada highway swings to the south between White River and Sudbury ON. to serve Sault Ste.Marie.

Opps, I meant to say CN between Capreol and Winnipeg ?

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Opps, I meant to say CN between Capreol and
> Winnipeg ?

Most of the CN is pretty remote between Capreol and Redditt ON.  Redditt was a former crew change location east of Winnipeg, and close to Kenora on the CP.

Here’s the maps that cover the CN line from Capreol (Sudbury) to the Manitoba border and as you can.....not many roads. Most cross
the line perpendicular with few running parallel so there are long stretches without access.

[size=14]http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/map/images/pdf/northont/sheets/Map12.pdf[/size]

[size=14]http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/map/images/pdf/northont/sheets/Map14.pdf[/size]

[size=14]http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/map/images/pdf/northont/sheets/Map13.pdf[/size]

In the upper left corner of map #13 you will see Ottermere, Malachi,Copelands Landing and Rice Lake....this is Cottage Country . Any time I’ve been on the Canadian, it has always stopped at one of these stations. A couple of the old buildings are still standing, maintained by the cottagers.

In the schedule for 1983 I posted above you can see theschedule for trains 148, 149 and 150 between Winnipeg and Farlane.......Friday
evening after work to the cottage and Sunday evening return.