Canadian Railroads > "VIA Rail's Ocean line not saving money with reduced service"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/via-rail-s-ocean-line-not-saving-money-with-reduced-service-1.3075851

Similarly, reducing the Canadian from three times a week to twice a week for six and a half months each year has apparently  not saved money.  According to VIA's annual reports, in 2011 the Canadian carried 109,000 passengers and had a loss of $46.4 million.  In 2014 93,000 passengers were carried and the loss was $55.4 million.

The Ocean’s downward spiral had begun long before the cut-back to three times a week service.

In 1997 the 'Eastern Transcontinental Service' carried 289,515 passengers (the Ocean was operating on a 6 times weekly schedule) By 2010 the ridership figure for the Ocean had fallen to 127,000 (still on a 6 times weekly schedule).....a very significant drop.

People just weren’t riding the Ocean...at least out of Halifax and to a lesser extent Moncton. They are now on the 2hr flight vs: 24hrs on the train and probably paying a cheaper airfare too.

The facts speak for themselves - cut back to tri-weekly operation saved them nothing, which the article made quite clear. 

Back before the days of discount airlines, the air fares east of Montreal were much higher per mile than the rest of Canada. Even the charter airlines charged alot to travel east of Toronto and Montreal.

Atlantic Canada had a good intercity bus service with long established Acadian and SMT coach lines.  Then the bus companies were purchased by either Irving or outside interests and bus service suffered as a consequence.

The French company that took over Orleans Express in Quebec and Acadian in the Maritimes announced that it would cease maritime services unless the Government subsidized the operation, and despite the fact that Peter McKay and Lisa Raitt (super stars in the Harper Government) are Cape Bretoners, no offer of Federal Government assistance was forthcoming.

A Prince Edward Island bus company made the leap of faith, and purchased Acadian to operate as Maritime bus.

Perhaps a regional passenger rail carrier funded by the Atlantic Provinces and Quebec would be more committed to train operation to Atlantic Canada.

Amtrak can do it in California, New York and other States. Why not Canada?

Chances are we will have a different political party or parties governing Canada after the October 19th Federal Election that will be more willing to listen to the people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/15 16:09 by eminence_grise.

I like the idea of having VIA becoming a partially seperate entity, supported by the atlantic provinces and some of Quebec. "Amtrak California"? = "VIA Atlantic"?

Brian H.

Perhaps the answer is discontinuing all of the long distance services, leaving the remaining market to the Rocky Mountaineer.

reindeerflame Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps the answer is discontinuing all of the
> long distance services, leaving the remaining
> market to the Rocky Mountaineer.

Or have Rocky Mountaineer run the Ocean and Canadian. They certainly know how to run their own service profitably and charge what the market will bear. Perhaps tack a coach on for the remote service areas and for those that just won't fly.

Hard to believe how much money The Canadian loses given the high fares charged....especially during peak season....with upwards of 25 cars nearly always full.

ghCBNS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Or have Rocky Mountaineer run the Ocean and
> Canadian. They certainly know how to run their own
> service profitably and charge what the market will
> bear. Perhaps tack a coach on for the remote
> service areas and for those that just won't fly.

Peter Armstrong, the owner of the Rocky Mountaineer tourist train service, has repeatedly said he has little desire to operate the "Canadian". His operation, a private company, is profitable and is so because only those train operations that make money are retained. Over the last 25 years, there have been service discontinuances and changes to ensure profitability. His biography "Trip of a Lifetime" details his relationship with the freight railways, Via and the Canadian Government.

The Canadian?? How many days does it take to get from point A to point B with how many crew members.  You are probably extremly in the red before you get to the other stuff.

Bob
 

It would seem pretty obvious that service increase (restoration) is needed on the Ocean. Even compared to 1990 numbers, something has to change with then Ocean's current operation. After all the Ocean came to be a six day a week train TO Halifax because the Atlantic was cut. So we've had nothing but a spiraling of cuts. 

I'd be curious as to what the numbers would be if VIA runs Renaissance equipment SIX days a week for one year and then runs Budd equipment the following year. Compare numbers....

i've over and over at Toeonto Union Station and Montreal - "The Ocean Siner erminology and comment from a few passengers.....

Run the Ocean six days a week again. 

The Canadian has got to be getting killed by tour group patronage because of the instability and lack of time keeping of the train. Roll it back to a three night four day schedule telling CN the current schedule just doesn't work and offers horrible scenery across the Canadian Shield compared to what was let alone the uncertainty of seeing mountain scenery running westbound. The Canadian has got to have the worst time keeping in history. Its longer schedule is just circling the drain - as likely are group tours. Another blunder was not keeping it on a tri-weekly schedule year round. That just adds another layer of uncertainty. I'd like to see what would happen if it ran daily in summer months. 
 

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would seem pretty obvious that service increase
> (restoration) is needed on the Ocean. Even
> compared to 1990 numbers, something has to change
> with then Ocean's current operation. After all the
> Ocean came to be a six day a week train TO Halifax
> because the Atlantic was cut. So we've had nothing
> but a spiraling of cuts. 
>
> I'd be curious as to what the numbers would be if
> VIA runs Renaissance equipment SIX days a week for
> one year and then runs Budd equipment the
> following year. Compare numbers....
>
> i've over and over at Toeonto Union Station and
> Montreal - "The Ocean Siner erminology and comment
> from a few passengers.....
>
> Run the Ocean six days a week again. 
>
> The Canadian has got to be getting killed by tour
> group patronage because of the instability and
> lack of time keeping of the train. Roll it back to
> a three night four day schedule telling CN the
> current schedule just doesn't work and offers
> horrible scenery across the Canadian Shield
> compared to what was let alone the uncertainty of
> seeing mountain scenery running westbound. The
> Canadian has got to have the worst time keeping in
> history. Its longer schedule is just circling the
> drain - as likely are group tours. Another blunder
> was not keeping it on a tri-weekly schedule year
> round. That just adds another layer of
> uncertainty. I'd like to see what would happen if
> it ran daily in summer months. 
>
There is no interest at the government level in Canada in improving these rail services.  There is tepid interest in minimizing expenditures on these services.  No matter what the numbers might say, the governing bureaucrats will likely adhere to their proven axioms that "the more trains you run, the higher the operating losses". 

Is there an interest / value in running a second section of the Canadian from Jasper to Vancouver during the Summer?  Do CP and CN run so many trains in that space that another passenger train can't be accommodated?

(Via must have sufficient equipment to run coaches back and forth on this highly scenic route.)

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there an interest / value in running a second
> section of the Canadian from Jasper to Vancouver
> during the Summer?  Do CP and CN run so many
> trains in that space that another passenger train
> can't be accommodated?
>
> (Via must have sufficient equipment to run coaches
> back and forth on this highly scenic route.)

Although I don't remember what year, a while back VIA planned on an additional tri-weekly train between Jasper (or maybe Edmonton) and Vancouver, which would have provided six-day-a-week service on that portion of the route.  A timetable was even published, but the "Rocky Mountaineer" kicked up a fuss and that was the end of that idea.

As with Amtrak, emphasis is to cut costs, to hell with revenue - lack of a fundamental understanding of incremental accounting analsyis.

DrawingroomA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is there an interest / value in running a
> second
> > section of the Canadian from Jasper to
> Vancouver
> > during the Summer?  Do CP and CN run so many
> > trains in that space that another passenger
> train
> > can't be accommodated?
> >
> > (Via must have sufficient equipment to run
> coaches
> > back and forth on this highly scenic route.)
>
> Although I don't remember what year, a while back
> VIA planned on an additional tri-weekly train
> between Jasper (or maybe Edmonton) and Vancouver,
> which would have provided six-day-a-week service
> on that portion of the route.  A timetable was
> even published, but the "Rocky Mountaineer" kicked
> up a fuss and that was the end of that idea.

Thanks for the info.  I can understand that Rocky would object to an additional train.  Would be nice to have a high reliability train on that segment to regain some of the tourist business.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there an interest / value in running a second
> section of the Canadian from Jasper to Vancouver
> during the Summer?  Do CP and CN run so many
> trains in that space that another passenger train
> can't be accommodated?
>
> (Via must have sufficient equipment to run coaches
> back and forth on this highly scenic route.)

For a single summer season, just before the HEP program, Via operated a Jasper-Vancouver train using the "Skeena" equipment laying over in Jasper between tri-weekly trips.
I believe this gave six day a week Jasper-Vancouver service.

It's long enough ago that I can't remember the reason it was discontinued or if a fuss was kicked up by anyone.

The eastbound version of this train is shown at Blue River BC.

---

DrawingroomA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is there an interest / value in running a
> second
> > section of the Canadian from Jasper to
> Vancouver
> > during the Summer?  Do CP and CN run so many
> > trains in that space that another passenger
> train
> > can't be accommodated?
> >
> > (Via must have sufficient equipment to run
> coaches
> > back and forth on this highly scenic route.)
>
> Although I don't remember what year, a while back
> VIA planned on an additional tri-weekly train
> between Jasper (or maybe Edmonton) and Vancouver,
> which would have provided six-day-a-week service
> on that portion of the route.  A timetable was
> even published, but the "Rocky Mountaineer" kicked
> up a fuss and that was the end of that idea.

Along with the six day a week operation between Vancouver and Jasper, there was also a plan to run the Skeena (train to Prince Rupert) to Edmonton - essentially providiing six day a week service here too. Again, schedules, train consists, and crews were even drawn up. It was VERY close in 2005. I recall VIA having a pretty heavy marketing presence in Vancouver (not sure what the numbers are now), and they were sending the marketing folks east to check out the Ocean and its new "Easterly Class" with Renaissance and Park Car dome service to see how some of that marketing could be implemented out West on said trains (e.g. the Maritime Learning Experience that had been launched with Easterly Class).

I too believe that all VIA is trying to do is substantiate a slow death for the Eastern transcon (the Ocean) and even the Western transcon (the Canadian). It's just amazing how ridership "dried up" compared to pre-1990 levels. Amtrak is on bare bones system but their numbers are increasing......... 

jp1822 Wrote:
> .....................It's just amazing how
> ridership "dried up" compared to pre-1990 levels.

CanJet and JetsGo arrived with bargain fares that were a fraction of what VIA charged for the 24 hr trip vs: a 2 hr flight. Today...CanJet and JetsGo are gone now but there’s still plenty of competition from Air Canada, WestJet and Porter. Air Canada even flies wide-bodies out of Halifax to Toronto.

And there’s been significant highway infrastructure improvements....

The Cobequid Pass Tollway opened...by-passing a notorious stretch of the Trans Canada Highway through the Wentworth ‘Death’ Valley. You can now drive from Halifax to Moncton in 2 hr 15 min vs: 4:15 on VIA and nearly the entire 500 km Trans Canada Highway through New Brunswick was rebuilt and twinned. I can drive to Montreal in half the time VIA takes.

About the only time the Halifax to Moncton portion of the run is busy is on weekends and in the summer. I’ve been on the Ocean in the off-season when we’ve had about a bus load in the coaches and almost no one in the sleepers until we reached Moncton.

Cut the Ocean back to a Moncton to Montreal run where people are actually riding. Daily service could be maintained with two sets of equipment. Extend the Ocean through to Halifax in the summer and fall.

People want to travel on their schedule. To get them on the train in the Maritimes, you would have to provide a level of service on a frequency of at least twice daily about 12 hrs apart. There’s just not the population density for that.